The final 9/11 conspiracy thread

[HM-PuFFNSTuFF]

That's possible too. Once again, a real investigation would clear up a lot of unneccessary speculation about this.

In my opinion it could have been Israel as easily as Pakistan, simply because we know there were Israeli intelligence operatives working within our borders at the time. There have been no public reports of Pakistani intelligence operatives appearing close to the hijackers and close to government/military facilities and trying to hide their identities. Also, there were the dancing guys on the van.

I find it deeply disturbing that you would be thinking of Israel when there is so much more to be concerned with in terms of the Pakistan connection.

You do know about the Pakistan connection right?

check this...

http://globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO111A.html

Let's compare it to any case we can make that Israel's Mossad was assisting Al Qaeda and see which one if either seems plausible.

So hundreds of Israelis are caught not only casing federal buildings (DEA buildings no less), and trying to sneak into them through back doors, but they are even caught visiting agents' homes and other places that they should not even know the locations of. This goes on for over a year and a half - right up to 9/11 - and you find it "deeply disturbing" that I suspect them of something?

I don't understand why you would find that deeply disturbing?

"Evidence linking these Israelis to 9/11 is classified. I cannot tell you about evidence that has been gathered. It's classified information."

-- US official quoted in Carl Cameron's Fox News report on the Israeli spy ring and its connections to 9-11.

To your other points, I certainly never dismissed Pakistan's involvement with the hijackers -- it is certainly just as suspicious.

But why is it disturbing that I would be suspicious of the Israelis who were covertly infiltrating federal facilities?

all the evidence I've seen suggests the Israeli spies had nothing to do with 9/11 (highly focused on dea officers why i don't know) . one spy living close to Atta means nothing though imho

I've never seen that quote before though.

[HM-PuFFNSTuFF]

http://www.projectcensored.org/newsflas ... tml#israel

this has a lot of info

[Nightshade]

Here's what The Man has to say about the Israel-9/11 connection:
http://www.antiwar.com/israeli-files.php

[R00k]

all the evidence I've seen suggests the Israeli spies had nothing to do with 9/11 (highly focused on dea officers why i don't know) . one spy living close to Atta means nothing though imho

I've never seen that quote before though.

It's in that Salon article you linked to:

a spy ring that according to Camerons sources may have known about the preparations for the Sept. 11 attacks but failed to share this knowledge with U.S. intelligence. One investigator told Cameron that "evidence linking these Israelis to 9/11 is classified. I cannot tell you about evidence that has been gathered. It's classified information."

Also, there wasn't just one of the art students living near Atta (from the same article):

According to Intelligence Online, more than one-third of the students, who were spread out in 42 cities, lived in Florida, several in Hollywood and Fort Lauderdale, Fla. -- one-time home to at least 10 of the 19 Sept. 11 hijackers. In at least one case, the students lived just a stone's throw from homes and apartments where the Sept. 11 terrorists resided: In Hollywood, several students lived at 4220 Sheridan St., just down the block from the 3389 Sheridan St. apartment where terrorist mastermind Mohammed Atta holed up with three other Sept. 11 plotters. Many of the students, the DEA report noted, had backgrounds in Israeli military intelligence and/or electronics surveillance; one was the son of a two-star Israeli general, and another had served as a bodyguard to the head of the Israeli army.

You should read the article, it's very interesting. It also mentions another tidbit, which has frightening implications by itself:

An internal DEA communiqué obtained by Salon indicates that the DEA made careful note of Camerons reports; the communiqué even mentions Fox News by name. Dated Dec. 18, four days after the final installment in the Fox series, the document warns of security breaches in DEA telecommunications by unauthorized "foreign nationals" -- and cites an Israeli-owned firm with which the DEA contracted for wiretap equipment -- breaches that could have accounted for the access that the "art students" apparently had to the home addresses of agents.

I haven't read this article myself in quite a while, but it is an important one to read. Nearly all of this info is from official sources.

[HM-PuFFNSTuFF]

i still don't understand what the Israelis supposedly did to help the terrorists.

[Canidae]

They did the catering

[R00k]

i still don't understand what the Israelis supposedly did to help the terrorists.

Nobody does -- it's classified -- but I'm far from the first person to speculate on the subject. Read that Salon article, and read some of Raimondo's.

The members of this massive operation were all just flown back to Israel afterward, without any serious investigation. Several of them failed lie detector tests, but as far as I know that was the end of it. No more questions - these guys are going home.

[Canidae]

Well whether they warned the US government or not I would think they would want to deploy their trusted eyes and ears to accurately to assess the incident regardless of how the US government reacted.

[Nightshade]

Israel had the most to benefit from the US population being pissed off at Arabs.

[HM-PuFFNSTuFF]

Israel had the most to benefit from the US population being pissed off at Arabs.

and they did what to help the terrorists?

did they have more to benefit than all those who have made money in Iraq?

[Nightshade]

Have you read the Clean Break document? Everything the US is doing is pretty much scripted right there.
I'm not saying that Israel did shit to help the terrorists, but they damn sure knew about it.
Read Raimondo's columns on it, he's got some detailed stuff.

[seremtan]

Well, the air isn't likely to shoot out pieces of structural metal that far.

those aren't bits of structural metal. they're bits of cladding and probably also miscellaneous office stuff

But if no explosives were used in a building like that, then all the exterior framing would not collapse inward the way it does in a controlled demolition - it would be thrown outward by massive falling floors because it would have to absorb some of the force, but there would be nowhere else for it to go, aside from out and down.

yes, exactly

[Ryoki]

Read Raimondo's columns on it, he's got some detailed stuff.

:icon14:

PS I'm still a fan of the 'they let it happen on purpose' theory. It's our generation's pearl harbor. Did Israel know? Probably.

[SplishSplash]

I'm still a fan of the 'they let it happen on purpose' theory.

[Freakaloin]

of course they let it happen...the only question is did they assist or completely orchestrate the attacks...

[R00k]

Israel had the most to benefit from the US population being pissed off at Arabs.

and they did what to help the terrorists?

did they have more to benefit than all those who have made money in Iraq?

You know that our actions in the Middle East after 9/11 have been the Israelis government's wet dreams for years.

Nobody has claimed to know that Israel did something to help the terrorists. But the Cui Bono question leads directly to Israel, even without all the stuff going on in the Salon article, as well as the dancing guys on the van (also not investigated).

Can you not see why it could make one suspcious?

Your question about whether they had more to benefit than the people making money in Iraq is irrelevant -- one group benefiting is not mutually exclusive from the other. We are allies, and share many of the same goals and objectives, for better or worse. One group benefiting does not exclude the other from scrutiny -- I have not excluded our government from my suspicions due to the fact that Israel benefited.

[Freakaloin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1i2gGb6aajw

[HM-PuFFNSTuFF]

Israel had the most to benefit from the US population being pissed off at Arabs.

and they did what to help the terrorists?

did they have more to benefit than all those who have made money in Iraq?

You know that our actions in the Middle East after 9/11 have been the Israelis government's wet dreams for years.

Nobody has claimed to know that Israel did something to help the terrorists. But the Cui Bono question leads directly to Israel, even without all the stuff going on in the Salon article, as well as the dancing guys on the van (also not investigated).

Can you not see why it could make one suspcious?

Your question about whether they had more to benefit than the people making money in Iraq is irrelevant -- one group benefiting is not mutually exclusive from the other. We are allies, and share many of the same goals and objectives, for better or worse. One group benefiting does not exclude the other from scrutiny -- I have not excluded our government from my suspicions due to the fact that Israel benefited.

It's not irrelevant. The Cui Bono question also leads directly to the Bush Administration and they are the ones charged with the responsibility of protecting your nation. They are the ones who received multiple warnings. And they have benefited immensely financialy and have achieved their PNAC Jizzshot. They are the ones who decided Iraq was a major part of the war on terror.

You say that nobody claims to know Israel did something to help the terrorists but you also claim it's quite plausible despite there being no evidence of Israel helping AlQaeda let alone explaining why such help would be accepted by AlQaeda.

While we're on the topic of Cui Bono lets not forget that AlQaeda had something to gain too right?

Okay so we have a few suspects who had something to gain now. It doesn't mean they're all guilty. That leaves us sifting through the available evidence and what you seem to find plausible I guess I find a lot less plausible.

[R00k]

Okay, I understand what you're saying. If I stated that it was plausible that Israel gave material help to al quaeda, then that wasn't the best choice of words.

I simply think that Israel had something to gain (not that they were the only ones), so it is plausible - even probable - to me that they knew it was going to happen and intentionally let it happen, just like certain people in our own government did. That is without considering any of the other anomalies we've been discussing.

When I see extremely suspicious casing and intelligence gathering activities by dozens and dozens of Israelis with connections to the Israeli government, going on for well over a year and leading right up to 9/11... When I see suspicious activity like that, and couple it with the fact that Israel had a motive to want the attacks to happen, then it makes me even more suspicious of their involvement.

But any active involvement with or material aid to the hijackers is only a strong suspicion, in which we see a motive and ample opportunities for it to have happened.

So to sum up: I do feel there is very strong evidence pointing to the fact that Israel knew the attacks were going to happen in advance, and allowed them to.

I feel there is motive and opportunity for them to also have tried to somehow shield the hijackers, to prevent them from being interrupted so that the attacks could proceed as planned. But there is no hard evidence of this part of the puzzle, only clues.

Remember, Israel not only knew the attacks were going to happen -- they also had breached our government's secret internal communications. Since they knew agents' home addresses, and they knew the locations of secret Dept of Defense installations, then they likely were privvy to information such as when military training exercises were going to occur as well as knowing when our law enforcement were on the trail of some of these operatives.

On second thought, plausible only means believable - not probable - so maybe it is a good word to describe my thoughts on Israeli invovlement.

[HM-PuFFNSTuFF]

So to sum up: I do feel there is very strong evidence pointing to the fact that Israel knew the attacks were going to happen in advance, and allowed them to.

Okay this is where I sense a disconnect. How was Israel in a position to allow (or stop) the attacks? Presumably all Israel could have done was warn like many other countries did, no?

Isn't the USA really the only country that could have allowed or stopped the attacks?

[R00k]

It's not irrelevant. The Cui Bono question also leads directly to the Bush Administration and they are the ones charged with the responsibility of protecting your nation. They are the ones who received multiple warnings. And they have benefited immensely financialy and have achieved their PNAC Jizzshot. They are the ones who decided Iraq was a major part of the war on terror.

You say that nobody claims to know Israel did something to help the terrorists but you also claim it's quite plausible despite there being no evidence of Israel helping AlQaeda let alone explaining why such help would be accepted by AlQaeda.

While we're on the topic of Cui Bono lets not forget that AlQaeda had something to gain too right?

This bears repeating again too: I am in no way trying to shift blame from my own government, or al quaeda for that matter. You have suggested this a couple times now so I just want to make clear that speaking about my suspicions regarding Israel's actions does not mean I believe they are in any way solely responsible for the attacks.
A pawn uses the help and cover of many other pieces to get to the other side of the board, whether directly or incidentally. Maybe al quaeda turned their pawns into a king when they reached their destination because that was the limit of their vision -- but it was a Queen for both the United States and Israel, and they knew it.

[4days]

Presumably all Israel could have done was warn like many other countries did, no?

they did, didn't they?

[R00k]

So to sum up: I do feel there is very strong evidence pointing to the fact that Israel knew the attacks were going to happen in advance, and allowed them to.

Okay this is where I sense a disconnect. How was Israel in a position to allow (or stop) the attacks? Presumably all Israel could have done was warn like many other countries did, no?

Isn't the USA really the only country that could have allowed or stopped the attacks?

If certain parties in the US government wanted to allow the attacks to happen, but Israel also knew it was going to happen and did NOT want it to, why couldn't they have blown the whistle on the whole operation?

You don't think Israel had enough influence in Washington to find the people who could stop the attacks - and wanted to - and warn them of the imminent danger?

[HM-PuFFNSTuFF]

Presumably all Israel could have done was warn like many other countries did, no?

they did, didn't they?

But if the mainstream media is to be believed, Israel gave the US several specific warnings of the 9/11 attacks. In the second week of August 2001, two high-ranking agents from the Mossad, the Israeli intelligence agency, came to Washington and warned the CIA and FBI that 50 to 200 al-Qaeda terrorists had slipped into the US and were planning an imminent “major assault on the US” aimed at a “large scale target” [Telegraph, 9/16/01, Los Angeles Times, 9/20/01, Ottawa Citizen, 9/17/01 Fox News, 5/17/02]. Near the end of August, France also gave a warning that was an “echo” of Israel’s. [Fox News, 5/17/02]

In October 2002, the story broke in Europe and Israel that on August 23, 2001, the Mossad had given the CIA a list of 19 terrorists living in the US. The Mossad had said that the terrorists appeared to be planning to carry out an attack in the near future. It is unknown if these are the same 19 names as the actual hijackers, or if the number is a coincidence. However, the four names on the list that are known are names of the 9/11 hijackers: Nawaf Alhazmi, Khalid Almihdhar, Marwan Alshehhi, and Mohamed Atta. [Die Zeit, 10/1/02, Der Spiegel, 10/1/02, BBC, 10/2/02, Ha’aretz, 10/3/02] These are also probably the four most important of the hijackers (and two of the pilots). From them, there were many connections to the others. The CIA had already been monitoring three of them overseas the year before, and two, Alhazmi and Almihdhar, were put on a watch list the same day the Mossad gave this warning. [AFP, 9/22/01, Berliner Zeitung, 9/24/01, Observer, 9/30/01, New York Times, 9/21/02]

Such detailed warnings of exact names fit in well with the reports that Israeli spies were tracking the hijackers for months before 9/11. Yet, as Jane’s Intelligence Digest put it, “It is rather strange that the US media seems to be ignoring what may well be the most explosive story since the 11 September attacks...” [Jane’s Intelligence Digest, 3/13/02] The spy ring story did get a little coverage in the US, but more recent stories claiming that Israel knew the exact names of at least some of the hijackers hasn’t been reported here at all. Perhaps the story is too controversial for the US media to touch?

Conspicuous in Their Absence

So many countries warned the US: Afghanistan, Argentina, Britain, Cayman Islands, Egypt, France, Germany, Israel, Italy, Jordan, Morocco, and Russia. Yet the two countries in the best position to know about the 9/11 plot—Saudi Arabia and Pakistan—apparently didn’t give any warning at all.

The ties between wealthy Saudi figures and al-Qaeda are many, and too complicated to go into here. But it is interesting to notice that, while discussing the resignation of Prince Turki al-Faisal, the head of the Saudi intelligence agency, the Wall Street Journal has speculated that the Saudi Arabian government may have had foreknowledge of 9/11: “The timing of Turki’s removal—August 31—and his Taliban connection raise the question: Did the Saudi regime know that bin Laden was planning his attack against the US? The current view among Saudi-watchers is that this is doubtful, but that the House of Saud might have heard rumors that something was planned, though they did not know what or when.”

An interesting and possibly significant detail is that Prince Sultan, the defense minister, was due to visit Japan in early September, but canceled his trip for no apparent reason two days before his planned departure. [Wall Street Journal, 10/22/01] In fact, that same Prince Sultan appears to have rejected a chance to warn the US. In August 2001, a military associate of a Middle Eastern prince passed information to former CIA agent Robert Baer about a “spectacular terrorist operation” to take place shortly. He also gave Baer a computer record of around 600 secret al-Qaeda operatives in Saudi Arabia and Yemen. But when Baer tried to give this information to Prince Sultan, he was rebuffed. Baer gave the information to the CIA as well, making this apparently yet another ignored warning. [Financial Times, 1/12/02, See No Evil: The True Story of a Ground Soldier in the CIA’s War on Terrorism,Robert Baer, 2/02, pp. 270-271, Breakdown: How America’s Intelligence Failures Led to September 11, Bill Gertz, pp. 55-58]

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/essa ... edtowarnus

[HM-PuFFNSTuFF]

You don't think Israel had enough influence in Washington to find the people who could stop the attacks - and wanted to - and warn them of the imminent danger?

who are the people who could stop the attacks?

edit: my brain hurts from your post. I need to break it down. Hope that's okay.