R00k wrote:YourGrandpa wrote:
I also think that putting an end to his rain will ultimately save millions of lives in the years to come.
Yes I completely agree.
So now you're saying this war is worth what it costs us, in order to prevent future dictatorial maniacs? Do you really think the way we invaded a sovereign, non-threatening country is going to make future Pol Pots and Kim Jong Ils decide "Hey, I don't think we need weapons to defend ourselves anymore?"
Yes that's what he is saying. Let's just clear the air here:
1. We invaded a country that WAS a threat. We didn't invade a country that was not a threat. Based on our intelligence and our best understanding of the situation at the time, and the fact that Iraq was not cooperating with UN inspectors in any way, that means they were a threat by definition. So to say they were not a threat is simply false. Everyone in the UN agreed they were a threat, or else we would not have sent UN inspectors to Iraq to assess the situation!!! OMFG it's so obvious! So let's not call it invading a sovereign, non-threatening country cause that's nonsense.
2. So far as the "needing weapons to defend themselves" arguement goes. The real message we are sending is that if you try to develop these weapons, that is what will cause your country to be invaded, so don't do it. Otherwise if you have nothing to hide and cooperate with the UN inspectors, you have nothing to worry about. That is the message that we sent loud and clear. And yes I think North Korea and the other countries got that message. The next time we send UN inspectors somewhere evil dictators are going to think twice about fucking around with them. Because we made it perfectly clear what the result of that will be.
You are saying "fuck what everybody else thinks" in one breath and then turning around and justifying the war based on how it will affect other people's decisions -- and wrongly, because you fail to look at it from their point of view.
The thing is, you are failing to look at it from the long term point of view, or really any point of view other than a few people who are too stupid to not be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Seriously about that whole Fallugia thing, we told them we were coming and that anyone who didn't want to die needed to get the fuck out. So if anyone got burned up then it's their own fault for living amidst the insurgents. Guilty by association.
Now this is a very important point I'm going to make so I want you to read carefully:
Dropping nukes on Japan was imo the worst thing we ever had to do, but it was the right decision to overall save lives. However you would think that today Japan would hate our guts to this day for doing that. But they don't, Japan loves us. Why? Because we helped them rebuild their country, just like we are doing with Iraq.
Imagine Iraq will be like Japen in 30 years and love us for freeing them from the tyrany of Saddam, freedom from sanctions which starve their people because Saddam doesn't give a flying fuck, freedom from being raped and killed because they don't go along with Saddam's wishes. How could they not like us and thank us for helping them out so much? Ya they might hate us now, but in the future they will change their minds when they see how much better it is for them. When they have a thriving economy, with free trade and lots of jobs, they can thank the U.S. for putting them in that place.
Not to mention, when other countries see how well Iraq is doing thanks to us, they will want to do the same thing. So eventually it will change the whole area of the world to be more like Europe where everyone gets along and are not worried about who's going to attack who next.
Does it look like Iran is cowering before us because of Iraq? No. So where is the basis for your claim that our 'show of force' will make bad leaders think twice about their actions?
Well let's wait till push comes to shove and then see what Iran does. When we threaten to go in and remove the regime we'll see if they stand up to us then. That may sound like a cocky arrogant attitude, but you have to realize that it is the world as a whole that wants to prevent Iran from building nukes, not just the U.S.
As long as we're planting bases throughout the middle east and then paying them less for oil than any other country in the world does -- as long as they are in that siutation, they have nothing to lose, and will continue to attack us.
Planting bases? Paying them less for oil? Oil is a world market my friend. If the price of crude is $50 a barrel, well that's the price of crude. Sure some people might work out a deal once in a while to get X barrels for Y price, but I don't buy the idea that we are getting special favors based on strong arm tactics.
The idea that we are preventing future terrorists is a complete fallacy as well. We are creating terrorists daily - there are now training grounds for terrorists in places there were not before, directly due to our actions. There have been more terrorist attacks since the Iraq war started than ever before. That is not because we are "bringing the battle to them," it is because we are doing the exact opposite of what you claim we are doing -- we are filling people with anger, fear and hatred, and putting them in a position where they have absolutely nothing to lose anymore. We are not spreading a freedom-based growth of happiness and understanding, we are killing people's family members by the thousands.
The only people we are killing are the insurgents and those that live amoungst them. I don't feel sorry for anyone killed in Fallugia, sorry but I just don't. They were hiding the enemy and living with them, therefore they are insurgents themselves.
How can you say this is going to decrease or prevent terrorism against us? You can't scare or intimidate people who are planning to blow themselves up, you know.
Because, again, you are looking so short term. You really need to stop that. In the long term, to stop terrorism we have to change the mindset of people overall. Basically we have to wake up the people over there and get them to realize that these insurgents really are the enemy so that they will not have anywhere to hide. Terrorists only exist because countries allow them to setup shop in their land.
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