We will start withdrawing from Iraq by Summer 2006

[Nightshade]

I'm usually right.

Ya apparently you're the only one on here besides me that knows what is up. Makes me wonder how old these kids are. They seem to be pretty much not worried about anything except making the rest of the world like us.

Telling yourself you're correct doen't make it so. You're ignoring or dismissing everything that doesn't fit in with your own opinion.
Hey, I'm 34 and a working professional, and guess what? I think you're a fucking idiot.

[Nightshade]

Well, some people can look for the bad in any situation, and yet never offer any other better ways of doing things, or ever admit that there is a problem until it slaps them in the face. I don't want to be one of those people. At least GW and crew are trying to do what they think is best to fix the problems. Seems that there are too many ppl telling them they are wrong, but then just leaving it at that. Never offering a better alternative. And really, sitting around waiting for the world to go to complete shit is not an alternative.

Like the latest thing that I think is retarded is all this pressure to pull our troops out immediately. What would the point of that be? So we can let things go to crap, have some crazy religious yahoos take power and break the democratic structure and be right back where we were again? With them pointing nukes at Israel and us in 10 years? Too many people just want to take the easy way out and not fix the problem because they don't think there is one. But there is. And we can't afford to be nieve to that anymore and get nuked or something before we stand up and take notice of the problems around us.

I predict that at some point in the future anther Iraq type situation will happen. And we will have some pussy for a president who will bow to the leftists and sit on his ass about it. Then we'll have a few million Americans get wiped off the planet and all of a sudden all those lefties will be like oh shit, we really were wrong the whole time, ok go get them and fix it now. But it will be too late.

You really have absolutely no idea what's going on in the world, do you? It's painfully obvious that you've swallowed every single bit of shit the Bush administration has said.

[4days]

I predict that at some point in the future anther Iraq type situation will happen. And we will have some pussy for a president who will bow to the leftists and sit on his ass about it. Then we'll have a few million Americans get wiped off the planet and all of a sudden all those lefties will be like oh shit, we really were wrong the whole time, ok go get them and fix it now. But it will be too late.

lol, this guy's brilliant.

[Nightshade]

Let's not forget
3) There's an election to win and we need to make people forget that we haven't caught Osama in Afganistan. WE ARE FIGHTING TURRORISTS! GO USA!

If it's so easy, tell us where he is so we can capture him. Otherwise stfu and stop belittling the efforts GW and our countrymen are making to keep you from dying from anthrax son.

HEY HOW ABOUT THE TIME WHEN GEORGE BUSH SAID HE DOESN'T CARE WHERE OSAMA IS? DO YOU REMEMBER THAT?

[Ryoki]

It's pretty bad, i usually enjoy discussions like this but when someone like MidnightQ4 comes along and starts spewing not just a bit of bullshit but large amounts of it, piled together into huge steaming mountains, i tend to get a little depressed. How do you point out the flaws in someones arguments when everything that comes out of their mouths is so infuriatingly ignorant that ones first reaction is to cringe in desperation?

[Nightshade]

As I said earlier, people like him need to be killed. Hopefully before they breed.

[seremtan]

I'm usually right.

Ya apparently you're the only one on here besides me that knows what is up. Makes me wonder how old these kids are. They seem to be pretty much not worried about anything except making the rest of the world like us.

i'd bet most of these "kids" are older than you. gramps seems to think i'm 12 or something, which is high-larious since iirc i'm older than him

[Fender]

Ya apparently you're the only one on here besides me that knows what is up. Makes me wonder how old these kids are. They seem to be pretty much not worried about anything except making the rest of the world like us.

I'll be 34 in a few weeks.

If it's so easy, tell us where he is so we can capture him. Otherwise stfu and stop belittling the efforts GW and our countrymen are making to keep you from dying from anthrax son.

You just don't get it do you? The invasion of Iraq had nothing to do with terrorism. The intelligence was made up or doctored or simply wrong because of incompetence.

I hate to break it to you but our countrymen are DIEING IN VAIN. Our counry is worse off because we are in Iraq. We've spent hundreds of billions of dollars that could have been used for any number of things, like actually fighting terrorism, for example. 2300 lives lost, just a couple hundred shy of the number of Americans who died on 9/11 which is why we supposedly got in to this whole mess to begin with, thousands upon thousands of dead Iraqis. The entire area is now a festering breeding ground for terrorism. The infrastructure of Iraq has been set back an estimated 20 years. We have devastated their country and we had no right to do so.

Plan and simple, you've bought in to the the fearmongering from this administration.

[R00k]

The reasons for going into this war were made up. You are still championing Bush's wonderful vision for recognizing these things that were completely fabricated to begin with.

You need to wake the fuck up son. I hope you never talk to salesmen alone.

[R00k]

I tried to make no such point. I don't think Saddam had much to do with 911, if anything. I think letting a tyrant such as Saddam run amuck without reprisal sets the wrong precedence in todays world. It only encourages other maniacs to attempt world domination. I also think that putting an end to his rain will ultimately save millions of lives in the years to come.

You need to re-read this thread and start pointing your finger at the right people. You're obviously confused.

So now you're saying this war is worth what it costs us, in order to prevent future dictatorial maniacs? Do you really think the way we invaded a sovereign, non-threatening country is going to make future Pol Pots and Kim Jong Ils decide "Hey, I don't think we need weapons to defend ourselves anymore?"

You are saying "fuck what everybody else thinks" in one breath and then turning around and justifying the war based on how it will affect other people's decisions -- and wrongly, because you fail to look at it from their point of view.

Does it look like Iran is cowering before us because of Iraq? No. So where is the basis for your claim that our 'show of force' will make bad leaders think twice about their actions?

As long as we're planting bases throughout the middle east and then paying them less for oil than any other country in the world does -- as long as they are in that siutation, they have nothing to lose, and will continue to attack us.

The idea that we are preventing future terrorists is a complete fallacy as well. We are creating terrorists daily - there are now training grounds for terrorists in places there were not before, directly due to our actions. There have been more terrorist attacks since the Iraq war started than ever before. That is not because we are "bringing the battle to them," it is because we are doing the exact opposite of what you claim we are doing -- we are filling people with anger, fear and hatred, and putting them in a position where they have absolutely nothing to lose anymore. We are not spreading a freedom-based growth of happiness and understanding, we are killing people's family members by the thousands.

How can you say this is going to decrease or prevent terrorism against us? You can't scare or intimidate people who are planning to blow themselves up, you know.

[Tormentius]

Hey, I'm 34 and a working professional, and guess what? I think you're a fucking idiot.

I'm 26 and couldn't agree more.

[MidnightQ4]

Heh, well I'm 32 and I can't fathom how all of you guys completely disregard the possibility that the Saddam's of the world could have and use weapons against innocent people. Or maybe you just don't care cause you don't think it will be you who dies. I think that is a head-in-the-sand way of thinking that will only end up with getting fucked in the ass eventually.

[Tormentius]

Heh, well I'm 32 and I can't fathom how all of you guys completely disregard the possibility that the Saddam's of the world could have and use weapons against innocent people. Or maybe you just don't care cause you don't think it will be you who dies. I think that is a head-in-the-sand way of thinking that will only end up with getting fucked in the ass eventually.

The US also uses horrific weapons against innocent people through poor planning (again, the white phosphorous issue leaps to mind). The rhetoric which a government uses to justify an action doesn't make it any less wrong.

[seremtan]

Heh, well I'm 32 and I can't fathom how all of you guys completely disregard the possibility that the Saddam's of the world could have and use weapons against innocent people. Or maybe you just don't care cause you don't think it will be you who dies. I think that is a head-in-the-sand way of thinking that will only end up with getting fucked in the ass eventually.

hm...

iraq sanctions: 750,000 dead (incl. 500,000 children)
iraq war 2: 100,000 dead (or were they all Zarqawi's "lieutenants"? )

hell, the west has killed nearly as many iraqis as saddam

[R00k]

[I posted this before, and saw it in the thread, but when I came back in the thread again it was gone?]

Heh, well I'm 32 and I can't fathom how all of you guys completely disregard the possibility that the Saddam's of the world could have and use weapons against innocent people. Or maybe you just don't care cause you don't think it will be you who dies. I think that is a head-in-the-sand way of thinking that will only end up with getting fucked in the ass eventually.

Who here said that "Saddam's of the world" couldn't have and use weapons against innocent people?

It's a big stretch between saying that and saying we should break our military and drive our nation into bankruptcy just to punish one man.

The war in Iraq is against all U.S. interests -- national security-wise, militarily, economically and diplomatically. The war is good for Israel and for certain people in this country, but not for you and me.

[MidnightQ4]

The reasons for going into this war were made up. You are still championing Bush's wonderful vision for recognizing these things that were completely fabricated to begin with.

You need to wake the fuck up son. I hope you never talk to salesmen alone.

No Wrong. The reasons were not made up or fabricated. Saddam was not cooperating with the UN inspectors for months. That's an act of war son. You need to wake the fuck up!

Also the intelligence we had, and I say we here meaning every other main country in the world, all pointed to Saddam having these chemical weapons. It was not made up. It may have been wrong, but it was not made up. However, if it was wrong or not, the fact that Saddam did not open his doors to the UN to prove that the intelligence was wrong was the reason we invaded. All he had to do was cooperate with the UN, not GW Bush mind you, the UN! And we would not have had our hand forced to the only option we had left which was going to war with his ass.

It is so damn ignorant of people to say we went into Iraq BECAUSE they had WMDs. That is incorrect. We went into Iraq because Saddam would not cooperate so we could verify if he had WMDs or not. Which means that we had to assume based on our intelligence that he DID have them. Why else would he be not cooperating?

Basically he was in violation of the UN policies which were established years back because the whole of the UN agreed, not just the U.S., that Saddam was a threat to the security of other countries. Not cooperating = declaring war on the nations in the UN.

[MidnightQ4]

Ya I'm seeing a lot of posts disappearing then reappearing too.

[MKJ]

The reasons for going into this war were made up. You are still championing Bush's wonderful vision for recognizing these things that were completely fabricated to begin with.

You need to wake the fuck up son. I hope you never talk to salesmen alone.

No Wrong. The reasons were not made up or fabricated. Saddam was not cooperating with the UN inspectors for months. That's an act of war son.

i really dont wanna get into this discussion, but if not following the UN is an act of war, wtf did the US ignore the UN and invade anyways?
*bakes noodle*

[Fender]

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The U.S. military is considering withdrawing 30,000 service members from Iraq following the December 15 election there, a Pentagon source said Thursday.

[MidnightQ4]

I also think that putting an end to his rain will ultimately save millions of lives in the years to come.

Yes I completely agree.

So now you're saying this war is worth what it costs us, in order to prevent future dictatorial maniacs? Do you really think the way we invaded a sovereign, non-threatening country is going to make future Pol Pots and Kim Jong Ils decide "Hey, I don't think we need weapons to defend ourselves anymore?"

Yes that's what he is saying. Let's just clear the air here:

1. We invaded a country that WAS a threat. We didn't invade a country that was not a threat. Based on our intelligence and our best understanding of the situation at the time, and the fact that Iraq was not cooperating with UN inspectors in any way, that means they were a threat by definition. So to say they were not a threat is simply false. Everyone in the UN agreed they were a threat, or else we would not have sent UN inspectors to Iraq to assess the situation!!! OMFG it's so obvious! So let's not call it invading a sovereign, non-threatening country cause that's nonsense.

2. So far as the "needing weapons to defend themselves" arguement goes. The real message we are sending is that if you try to develop these weapons, that is what will cause your country to be invaded, so don't do it. Otherwise if you have nothing to hide and cooperate with the UN inspectors, you have nothing to worry about. That is the message that we sent loud and clear. And yes I think North Korea and the other countries got that message. The next time we send UN inspectors somewhere evil dictators are going to think twice about fucking around with them. Because we made it perfectly clear what the result of that will be.

You are saying "fuck what everybody else thinks" in one breath and then turning around and justifying the war based on how it will affect other people's decisions -- and wrongly, because you fail to look at it from their point of view.

The thing is, you are failing to look at it from the long term point of view, or really any point of view other than a few people who are too stupid to not be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Seriously about that whole Fallugia thing, we told them we were coming and that anyone who didn't want to die needed to get the fuck out. So if anyone got burned up then it's their own fault for living amidst the insurgents. Guilty by association.

Now this is a very important point I'm going to make so I want you to read carefully:

Dropping nukes on Japan was imo the worst thing we ever had to do, but it was the right decision to overall save lives. However you would think that today Japan would hate our guts to this day for doing that. But they don't, Japan loves us. Why? Because we helped them rebuild their country, just like we are doing with Iraq.

Imagine Iraq will be like Japen in 30 years and love us for freeing them from the tyrany of Saddam, freedom from sanctions which starve their people because Saddam doesn't give a flying fuck, freedom from being raped and killed because they don't go along with Saddam's wishes. How could they not like us and thank us for helping them out so much? Ya they might hate us now, but in the future they will change their minds when they see how much better it is for them. When they have a thriving economy, with free trade and lots of jobs, they can thank the U.S. for putting them in that place.

Not to mention, when other countries see how well Iraq is doing thanks to us, they will want to do the same thing. So eventually it will change the whole area of the world to be more like Europe where everyone gets along and are not worried about who's going to attack who next.

Does it look like Iran is cowering before us because of Iraq? No. So where is the basis for your claim that our 'show of force' will make bad leaders think twice about their actions?

Well let's wait till push comes to shove and then see what Iran does. When we threaten to go in and remove the regime we'll see if they stand up to us then. That may sound like a cocky arrogant attitude, but you have to realize that it is the world as a whole that wants to prevent Iran from building nukes, not just the U.S.

As long as we're planting bases throughout the middle east and then paying them less for oil than any other country in the world does -- as long as they are in that siutation, they have nothing to lose, and will continue to attack us.

Planting bases? Paying them less for oil? Oil is a world market my friend. If the price of crude is $50 a barrel, well that's the price of crude. Sure some people might work out a deal once in a while to get X barrels for Y price, but I don't buy the idea that we are getting special favors based on strong arm tactics.

The idea that we are preventing future terrorists is a complete fallacy as well. We are creating terrorists daily - there are now training grounds for terrorists in places there were not before, directly due to our actions. There have been more terrorist attacks since the Iraq war started than ever before. That is not because we are "bringing the battle to them," it is because we are doing the exact opposite of what you claim we are doing -- we are filling people with anger, fear and hatred, and putting them in a position where they have absolutely nothing to lose anymore. We are not spreading a freedom-based growth of happiness and understanding, we are killing people's family members by the thousands.

The only people we are killing are the insurgents and those that live amoungst them. I don't feel sorry for anyone killed in Fallugia, sorry but I just don't. They were hiding the enemy and living with them, therefore they are insurgents themselves.

How can you say this is going to decrease or prevent terrorism against us? You can't scare or intimidate people who are planning to blow themselves up, you know.

Because, again, you are looking so short term. You really need to stop that. In the long term, to stop terrorism we have to change the mindset of people overall. Basically we have to wake up the people over there and get them to realize that these insurgents really are the enemy so that they will not have anywhere to hide. Terrorists only exist because countries allow them to setup shop in their land.

[Tormentius]

i really dont wanna get into this discussion, but if not following the UN is an act of war, wtf did the US ignore the UN and invade anyways?
*bakes noodle*

Yeah I was wondering the same thing. It must be different when its his country not cooperating .

[werldhed]

Also the intelligence we had, and I say we here meaning every other main country in the world, all pointed to Saddam having these chemical weapons. It was not made up. It may have been wrong, but it was not made up. However, if it was wrong or not, the fact that Saddam did not open his doors to the UN to prove that the intelligence was wrong was the reason we invaded. All he had to do was cooperate with the UN, not GW Bush mind you, the UN! And we would not have had our hand forced to the only option we had left which was going to war with his ass.

Yes, yes it was made up. Much of the basis of evidence for WMDs came from defector accounts that did not pass polygraph tests. Reports saying Iraq had WMDs were made anyway. That's called making something up.

[Tormentius]

Seriously about that whole Fallugia thing, we told them we were coming and that anyone who didn't want to die needed to get the fuck out. So if anyone got burned up then it's their own fault for living amidst the insurgents. Guilty by association.

Remember these words when your country is hit next because this is the same weak excuse that terrorists use to justify striking civilian targets.

Well let's wait till push comes to shove and then see what Iran does. When we threaten to go in and remove the regime we'll see if they stand up to us then. That may sound like a cocky arrogant attitude, but you have to realize that it is the world as a whole that wants to prevent Iran from building nukes, not just the U.S.

You do realize that the rest of the world isn't going to put up with another US invasion right? Attacking Iran could very well spark a war with the entire Middle East and that would be a war that your overstretched military definitely isn't up to fighting. Iran knows that.

Terrorists only exist because countries allow them to setup shop in their land.

Terrorism exists because of fear, hate, and people feeling that they have nothing to lose.

[MidnightQ4]

i really dont wanna get into this discussion, but if not following the UN is an act of war, wtf did the US ignore the UN and invade anyways?
*bakes noodle*

Well that's a good point, but here is the answer to that one:

We did follow the UN, based on what the UN had set forth years before. What actually happened was that some other countries in the UN had decided not to follow their own decisions becaues since making those decisions years ago they had become corrupt and made deals with Saddam. The policies setup by the UN against Iraq building weapons were very clear. We did nothing wrong by enforcing those policies. The ones who were wrong was the other countries who pussed out.

[MidnightQ4]

Yes, yes it was made up. Much of the basis of evidence for WMDs came from defector accounts that did not pass polygraph tests. Reports saying Iraq had WMDs were made anyway. That's called making something up.

However, let's not forget that this "evidence" was not the main reason we invaded, it was the lack of compliance with UN officials. The evidence was only the catalyst to send inspectors in. After that it really did not mean much, so whether it was false or true is irrelevant. Again, everyone seems to think that since we didn't find WMDs that we were wrong to go into Iraq. That is incorrect. The existance of WMDs or not was not the reason for invading. It was the repeated lack of cooperation with UN inspectors that was the cause for invasion.