60th anniversary of Hiroshima - good article

[HM-PuFFNSTuFF]

a couple of interesting reads on the topic...

http://www.motherjones.com/commentary/c ... shima.html

http://www.informationclearinghouse.inf ... le9655.htm

[Dave]

while the u.s. has always been backwards in issues of race, I don't really see how it played into the bombing of Japan.7.

It's not just that, but the character of Western racism against Japanese is completely different from African racism, which is what most people imagine when they hear 'racism'. African racism is based in the belief that blacks are supposedly a subhuman working class. Asian racism is based on an Orientalist ideology. It's far more complex than the racism directed at people of sub-Saharan African descent.

[sliver]

ok after a night's sleep ive realized my first post might have come off the wrong way. If I were the US and i knew japan was about to surrender anyway, obviously i wouldn't drop the bomb.

But if i didn't know they were about to surrender, fuck yes i'd do it. The cunts surprise-attacked the US, the US wanted to assert its nuclear power, and whats the point of wasting your own civilian lives kicking the asses of a bunch of fucks who despite their legendary honour and all that shit snuck across the atlantic to stab you in your sleep?

Bombing two civilian cities was a bit much, but if they dropped one bomb somewhere not so populated it would have been completely justifiable. When you start a war with someone else, if they have the power to kick your ass, you're pretty much asking for it.

[stocktroll]

if you want to be a whiney cunt about nuking japan, i would have liked to see you go rush into tokyo to finish out the war
also it must have racist considering instead of just bailing out and leaving them as a stoneage village, we rebuild them (and germany) as a top 3 nation economically

i'm interested. can you fill me in on the details of america's rebuilding of japan?

I think the rebuilding involved stationing lots of US troops in Japan, charging Japan for the priviledge of being occupied by the US and opening a few McDonalds.

you cant be serious. If it wasnt for the US reconstruction, japan to this day would be like vietnam.

[Dave]

i'm interested. can you fill me in on the details of america's rebuilding of japan?

I think the rebuilding involved stationing lots of US troops in Japan, charging Japan for the priviledge of being occupied by the US and opening a few McDonalds.

you cant be serious. If it wasnt for the US reconstruction, japan to this day would be like vietnam.

How so?

[horton]

you cant be serious. If it wasnt for the US reconstruction, japan to this day would be like vietnam.

dont be silly.

they would have been rich either way, i might have taken them a little longer, but just having a few buildings rebuilt isnt gonna make them an economic success.

[Maiden]

while the u.s. has always been backwards in issues of race, I don't really see how it played into the bombing of Japan.7.

It's not just that, but the character of Western racism against Japanese is completely different from African racism, which is what most people imagine when they hear 'racism'. African racism is based in the belief that blacks are supposedly a subhuman working class. Asian racism is based on an Orientalist ideology. It's far more complex than the racism directed at people of sub-Saharan African descent.

yeah, I have a pretty good grasp on it. I've been with the same woman (who is asian) for 6 years.

[ppp]

I read somewhere the nuke decision was taken only because a VERY fast end was required to stop the Russians taking the Islands, otherwise there would possibly be Russians there today, instead of Americans.

Which I read is also the reason why they were forced to enter WW2. To secure future war loan repayments by ensuring the Russians did not take control of Europe as Germany was spreading itself too thin and may even loose the war This would not have been a favourable outcome for the US as the Ruskees would hardly pay them.

Wars are the DADDY when it comes to making money, a country will borrow whatever it takes at whatever the cost, term etc. to ensure victory and even agree to pick up the tab for the loser..

[stocktroll]

Russia would had gladly given Japan an involunatry ticket to their economic system of disaster if the US didnt get involved

[Cool Blue]

The bombing of Japan was the best thing ever for Japan, in a tough love kind of way.

The Japanese can hardly EVER claim innocence in anything, as history has shown them to be one of the most ruthless, unapologetic societes to exist. No other government has ever implemented or condoned the abuse, rape, degredation, and enslavery of a foreign people (speaking of the chinese, vietnamese, and koreans) than the Japanese government.

A (any) goverment, even in a dictatorship, is still empowered by and therefore dependant on the people (the power lies on which side understands and leverages this rule). The people did nothing but condone the raping enslavement of the chinese and not only have yet to acknowledge it, they have yet to apologize for it. (We all remember the Chinese feelings on this from a few months ago)

The Japanese have also not yet apologized for starving and torturing the POWs they had.

There are few people more deserving of retribution of this magnitude.


Aside from that, the decision to bomb non-military sites was solely for the psychological and political ramifications. It was to make a point. A large point. Bombing some remote site that kills all it's victims (especially only soldiers) does nothing but motivate people to hate more, and therefore fight harder. It does little to affect the will and fear of the peoples. Create a large enough boom, and have a startling amount of deaths plus survivors and you now have gone from an 'incident' to 'catastrophic event'. Add to the fact that now every man women and child in the enemy territory knows first hand that the enemy can bring about this destruction at will and you have done more than disrupt his military capabilities; you have crushed his peoples moral and spirit. This is the same reason current terrorists aren't attacking military installations today, but favor civilian targets. (It's actually kind of funny how the modern terrorists are mentally manipulating the 'educated' peoples of the western world exactly how they want (notice how your countries are becoming overridden with law enforcement and severe reductions in freedom of expression, travel, and ownership?))

[horton]

The bombing of Japan was the best thing ever for Japan, in a tough love kind of way.

The Japanese can hardly EVER claim innocence in anything, as history has shown them to be one of the most ruthless, unapologetic societes to exist. No other government has ever implemented or condoned the abuse, rape, degredation, and enslavery of a foreign people (speaking of the chinese, vietnamese, and koreans) than the Japanese government.


The Japanese have also not yet apologized for starving and torturing the POWs they had.

There are few people more deserving of retribution of this magnitude.

twat.

Every strong nation has done something similar at some time in history, China has been responsible for killing more of its own people than Japan ever killed, various europeans fucked all the native americans in the ass, from the vikings, the romans - all through history someone has been kicking someone elses ass.

The Japanese govt, the prime minister and the emperor has apoligised on numerous occasions for all the shit that happened in WW2 and before and dont think that war crimes were limited to Japan: http://codoh.com/atro/atrigb1.html




http://codoh.com/atro/ATRSU3.HTML

http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/massacres.html

there was nasty shit done on both sides, it just happens that the japanese were on the losing side, and therefore seen as pure evil, while the allies won and were able to justify every action they took no matter how fucked up.

I cant see how anyone complaining about inhumane acts commited by the military of one nation can in the same post say that civilians who sat at home deserved to have a atomic bomb dropped on them. either killing innocents is OK or its not - thats like me going to kick some innocent pakistanis ass, just because another pakistani set off some bombs in london.

[sliver]

awww, poor nazi deathcamp overlords. fuck those fags, they deserved to die. They werent just combatants following orders, they were running a fucking slaughterhouse. fuck them all.

[horton]

awww, poor nazi deathcamp overlords. fuck those fags, they deserved to die. They werent just combatants following orders, they were running a fucking slaughterhouse. fuck them all.

lots of those killed were eastern europeans who were drafted in at the end of the war, after lots of germans deserted. they had nothing to do with the shit that went on there.

them killing 500 troops who surrendered makes them pretty much the same as what they were supposedly fighting against.

[[xeno]Julios]

them killing 500 troops who surrendered makes them pretty much the same as what they were supposedly fighting against.

words of wisdom

[seremtan]

hm, some people here seem to think a thirst for vengeance is a substitute for moral reflection, as though strength of feeling is the only true measure of rightness.

The bombing of Japan was the best thing ever for Japan, in a tough love kind of way.

this is an exceptionally retarded comment. try this for size as a contrast:

9/11 was the best thing ever for America, in a tough love kind of way.

hm, right. and you didn't even go on to explain exactly *why* hiroshima was 'the best thing ever for japan' in any kind of way.

[sliver]

them killing 500 troops who surrendered makes them pretty much the same as what they were supposedly fighting against.

That may be perfectly true, but we get to sit here 60 years later and comment on how shit went down. If you'd been fighting in a war to protect your own country from being overrun by nazi pieces of shit and seen your friends dying around you, and then stumbled across a concentration camp how do you know you wouldn't plug a few of the cunts in the head?

[seremtan]

...a war to protect your own country from being overrun by nazi pieces of shit...

the US was never in danger in danger of being overrun by nazis, just as it was never in danger of being overrun by communists, mad mullahs or saddam hussein. it's sad to see propaganda become historical fact become received and unquestioned truth

[hax103]

hm, right. and you didn't even go on to explain exactly *why* hiroshima was 'the best thing ever for japan' in any kind of way.

Perhaps we can agree that

(1) War is fucking chaos and madness
(2) Countries are looking out for themselves and the Prime Minister/President is sworn to look after his own country.

If you could agree to that then here is the state of things mostly according to the Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bom ... d_Nagasaki

First, this was Hiroshima in 1945: "At the time of its bombing, Hiroshima was a city of considerable military significance. It contained the headquarters of the Fifth Division and Field Marshal Hata's 2nd General Army Headquarters, which commanded the defense of all of southern Japan. The city was a communications center, a storage point, and an assembly area for troops."

400,000 American's dead from the war.

May 25, 1945 - U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff approve Operation Olympic, the invasion of Japan, scheduled for November 1

June 9, 1945 - Japanese Premier Suzuki announces Japan will fight to the very end

in the summer of 1945 US military planners projected 20,000-110,000 combat deaths from the initial November 1945 invasion... with a worst case total loss of 1 million American casualties.

So, suppose you, Seremtan (or Horton), are the American President and sworn to look out for your countrymen's lives and wellbeing...

As the American President, do you

(1) Use the Nuke and end the war quickly and avoid the November invasion and save tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands of your countrymen's lives but kill 140,000 Japanese including wiping out the Japanese southern Army base. And you would free about 100,000 Allied POWs from a miserable and perhaps tortured existence or even death as the Japanese war ministry has just declared that any attack by land would result in the death of all POWs on August 1, 1944

or

(2) Continue with the current air bombings on Japan where tens of thousands of Japanese are being killed each week. So, if the Japanese did eventually surrender in December, there would still be about 18 weeks 180,.000 Japanese dead.


-------

As a side-note, the notion of surrender to the Japanese upper commanders was so disgusting that even after the Imperial order to surrender, the top brass in the Japanese military tried to stage a coup to continue the war citing Heaven being with them.

[stocktroll]

...a war to protect your own country from being overrun by nazi pieces of shit...

the US was never in danger in danger of being overrun by nazis, just as it was never in danger of being overrun by communists, mad mullahs or saddam hussein. it's sad to see propaganda become historical fact become received and unquestioned truth

ya our homeland was never endangered so we should have just worried about taking out japan while europe got raped

[sliver]

...a war to protect your own country from being overrun by nazi pieces of shit...

the US was never in danger in danger of being overrun by nazis, just as it was never in danger of being overrun by communists, mad mullahs or saddam hussein. it's sad to see propaganda become historical fact become received and unquestioned truth

You're right, i got muddled and forgot we were talking only about Americans. That doesn't change my point at all, though; Americans still fought the Nazis in Europe and saw their comrades fall in battle against the fuckers. And i still want to hear horton's thoughts on that.

[horton]

And i still want to hear horton's thoughts on that.

my thoughts on 500 POWs being shot in cold blood?

barbaric, inhumane murder - exactly what the nazis were accused of.

makes the people responsible no better than the people they were fighting against.

would it be acceptable for 500 Iraqi/Taliban to be shot after they had surrendered? of course not, its not acceptable now, it wasnt acceptable then. I can understand a couple of soldiers in the middle of nowhere shooting a couple of guys who have been trying to kill them 20 mins ago,

but for a high ranking soldier to order the execution of 500 POWs is never acceptable under any circumstances.

[horton]

how do you know you wouldn't plug a few of the cunts in the head?

btw 520 of the 560 POWs being shot does not equal 'a few of the cunts'

[sliver]

And i still want to hear horton's thoughts on that.

my thoughts on 500 POWs being shot in cold blood?

barbaric, inhumane murder - exactly what the nazis were accused of.

I never said it wasn't barbaric, inhumane murder, i just want to know how you can be so sure you wouldn't have shot them just like the people who liberated the camp did.

And I know 500 people isn't a few, but if there were 200 liberators, that's only a couple each.

edit: understand that i'm not arguing it was right or even acceptable for them to do what they did. I'm just saying i'm not surprised it did happen, and in the middle of a fucking war in which i'd seen my friends die, i can't be sure i woudln't do the same. Frankly, i don't believe you can be sure either.