MSG Mapping Comp- Sector 9 "The Cytherean Outpost"

[kaustic]

For the first time ever I actually made a sketch of a map and worked from it to get most of my layout.
Of course I had to make adjustments because of my wonderful drawing skills weren't to scale. I had
originally thought I would do this map with another level to it but have since decided that I'm going to
go with a map more suited for 1v1, 2v2, 4 DM.
Anyway at present it has no clipping ,weapons ,items ,and minimal lighting. The map is sitting in a box
I applied the sky texture to so I could compile it and get a look at it. Figured I'd put up here for commenting.
Just remember I don't have a lot of time left to be making major changes.

Edit- 25 May 2018- Updated D/L's in my last post.

[AEon]

A few "early" notes:

• I like your light-coloured wooden steps... would be neat to see more non-dark dirty crete in the map, IMO.
• Normally striped textures (i.e. yellow and black) are used to define edges that could mean a potential dangerous drop. You are using them (the reddish/grey stripes) as decorative borders along floor edges. Hmm... personally I felt there was too much red on the floor due to this, I constantly thought I was running on some weird form of blood. I noted you are using this reddish striped border *two* tiles wide instead of the more common *one* tile wide. Using only one tile width IMO could help reduce the "red" noise on the floor.
• The tiled grey-smeared floor texture is quite detailed, i.e. the actual tiling is small. Somehow I feel there is too much going on on the floors, almost detracting. Larger less dark and smeared tiling might be better, you could then add smear decals where you think they would fit, instead of making most of the floors (except the metal) ones smeared.
• Without bots and weapons it's hard to tell how well the layout works. My very first impression was it was pretty maze-like (Obsidian might call it "Corridor Cancer"). But after running around some more I have the feeling the map could have some interesting gameflow going. But that gameflow would need some clever weapon/item placement to make the most out of it.
• I no-clipped up to your running ledge on the top of all your walls, jumping around up there was kind of fun. Though that will probably be clipped off I imagine.
• Overall, I felt the map had a bit more potential to use vertical fighting (sorry for being this vague).
• Be sure to add some more lights, several areas are almost black.
• All in all the map reminded me of Daikatana, interesting, but very dark texture-wise overall.

Hope that helps.

Update: About deco... I am sure you have been considering some of the following.

• The map presently is very consistent design-wise. In my book that is a good thing. It can make a map potentially monotonous and boring, though, so adding some stand-out geometry like a tower and/or a deep pit or some arc/grating might help break up the "sameness".
• Flat water in your lower tube corridors might be interesting, also as audio cue.
• This map could actually get away by using some lava trims, would fit the overall dark/moody look.
• Personally I would love some windows and plants, but I always like those.

But the first thing to test, IMO, is to add weapons/items, and compile the map for bots. That way it will be much easier to test the gameflow.

[kaustic]

Thanks for your input. The floors textures are at half scale (0.25000)of normal(0.50000). Been thinking of not clipping off the
upper ledge so as to kind of have another optional playing surface if one where to rocket jump up there. Its why I
textured it. Yes I was thinking of putting some water in the lower area. I also have some decals for that area too.

[kaustic]

Ok, the map now has bot support. I clipped off the map. You can get to the ledge easily by rocket jumping.
Of course the bots wont go up there. They don't seem to like using the jump pads either. Played with the
lighting, added some of this and some of that and resized the floor texture(I still like it better than anything
else I tried). Also the map is no longer in a box, I brushed out the sky to fit the map.

D/L- Edit: New file in latest post.

[AEon]

I really like the lighting now, much more friendly. Some thoughts:

• I was surprised to see the RG right next to the Quad. In the line of sight RG, Quad, RG ammo, I was thinking that the RG might be better placed were the RG ammo is, plus extrude a ledge were the RG ammo is, overlooking the lower entry to the "dungeons". This way the RG would be visible from everywhere in the RL "arena", i.e. making the RG exposed, but not too "available".
• In the RL arena, on one side you have shards, on the other narrow ledge you could maybe add 5Hs? Just a thought.
• Been thinking swapping the Quad with the RA locations, putting the Quad in the dungeon might be something to look into.
• Some of the path, i.e. when going from the RG to the Quad, right path down stairs, and straight on to the RG ammo, stairs on the right, and then path to the PG... all these steps seem to be empty. A 25H or something somewhere on the platforms between steps might be a good thing to motivate using them more.
• IMO, there is a slight ammo overdose in the dungeon.
• Hope you will give the rock formations on the floor around the RA some more love, i.e. to make it look more raggedy-natural. I like the water down here.

On Bots (played FFA, on Hardcore):

• You seem to be lacking player respawn points, entering the map I directly telefragges a bot near the Quad.
• 6 Bots may be a bit much for this relatively small map, you might like dropping two, i.e. 4 bots should be enough.
• IMO the dungeon needs a weapon to motivate the bots and the player to go down there, e.g. the LG.
• Another way to get more action down in the dungeon, an area I pretty much completely ignore, because I don't "like" going there, is to add at least two spawn points there. Presently the action is centred around the stairs between GL, Quad and RG ammo strangely enough.
• All the above ground gameplay seems to work nicely, I like running the paths up here.

[kaustic]

Here is an update. Removed the QD ,I think the level is better off without it
Change some texture
Added some windows
Cut down on the ammo down below.
Still need to add some clips around the lights.
D/L -Removed , Will update soon.

[AEon]

Some more thoughts:

• I like the windows... together with your Chinese-like roof design they make the "buildings" starts to look like buildings. You may want to try to experiment with different size windows and the use of grates in front of one or two, for variation.
• I like the triangular light on the wall near the RG. Probably was there all the along, I just missed it.
• Less ammo in lower level works, but I still find myself never entering the lower level area. Maybe some windows here as well, might help, and probably at least one weapon like the LG. I am not sure, but can it be that there is no respawn point down here, that might also help get players/bots here.
• Something I have been wondering about. I noted your player spawns face away from the PG, RG and RL, spawing you below and in front of these weapons. Normally a respawn point would let your get a weapon relatively quickly, in all three cases you have to take the roundabout way to get one. This could be a design / gameplay choice, but I found it a bit aggravating. I am aware that you are really tight on space in the map, so placing the respawns elsewhere will not be easy or possible.
• In case I missed it, a respawn near the SG and the GL might be something to look into.
• And nice up the "rock" around the RA, the low-poly-ness of the presently looks bland, IMO.
• I am normally not a fan of Teleports, but placing one behind the RA on the wall, might be something to look into... then again maybe not... just a thought, to add more gameflow in the lower part of the map.

[kaustic]

When I first started construction of this map I didn't have one particular theme I thought was suitable for the textures I
had decided to use. I had many ideas but they all just didn't seem to fit. Then it came to me (before the first build I released
for testing) that I had always had this fascination with the Dry Tortugas and in particular Fort Jefferson. This is where I found
my inspiration. Not in the architecture itself but the fact that it was a Fortress that was converted into a prison. So don't think
of yourself as looking at buildings but looking at the walls that imprison you.
Links- http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=for ... &FORM=IGRE
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dry_Tortugas

[AEon]

Looking at those screenshots, I would go for windows that look out onto water and beach, and turn up the sun .

Adding some more architectural details like arcs might be neat though.

[kaustic]

I was stationed in Key West for 4 years during my time in the Navy. I never made it out to Garden Key, although
I did do a lot of diving ,snorkeling and fishing. Of all the places I was stationed at, the ones I liked the most where
Key West and Scotland. The closest I ever got to Germany was passing through the Kiel Canal.

[kaustic]

Ok been busy the last few days and got some things done. Worked a lot on the upper portion and clipped it off.
There are a few places you may get snagged if you spend all of your time rubbing up against the outside wall as
far up as you can go so I don't see it as an issue. The bots still don't like the jump pads and adding botroams
just made them jump on the jp's numerous times before going off to other things (even with low weight settings).
Here's the new pk3.
D/L - In latest post.

[AEon]

Feedback on the design changes:

• I really like all the vaguely "asian-inspired" brushwork at the top of the map in wood. There is even a Xaero model up there. Neat.
• I like the light textures you are using on all the steps.
• The subtle fog really helps accentuate the lower part of the map, and adds slight creepiness to it.
• The APs... I was about to suggest to put them on geometry not flat on the floor, when I noted your very subtle brushwork for them. Like them a lot, especially the metal edges.
• You seem to have added many white-squarish lights, seem nice as well.
• Nice levelshot.
• The sewer area rock still looks too much like low-poly triangles. The very angly brushes here look out of place, IMO.

About the upper area walkways:

• Hmm... at first glance I am a bit torn. I feel that the relatively concise gameflow suddenly gets doubled, thus inadvertently bloating the map. Sure it might be fun to run up there, for a bit, but this introduces a huge amount of chaos to the map, i.e. you could be camped out from above from any point in the map.
• The RA and the RG ammo have a direct AP, the MH does not. You have to take the really really long-winding way from the RA. I am pretty sure no one will bother running that path. OK, it just occurred to me you can Rocket Jump, but since you die in the map quickly enough, using a RJ to get up there would kill the player even faster. So I am not really sure the upper paths help.
• If you really want to use those upper paths as a central feature, some more conventional paths up there might be good, i.e. at least one stairway, and maybe another JP.
• The upper ledge texture you walk on should then also be some form of "flooring tile", not just plain stone, IMO.
• I especially feel that the walkways up there on the ledge would then need to be made wider about 30%, because presently one does have to really concentrate to not fall off them.
• If not already done so, respawn points up here, if only for the bots would also be a valid thing to contemplate.

Testing the gameplay against bots next...

Update:

• Actually play testing those ledges showed me that I was wrong. They just work, I was able to almost blindly strafe along the walls do small jumps all the while firing down at the bots. Or running backwards into the AP to grab the RA, to continue shooting down. Works really nicely. No one is forced to run about up there but one can. And this adds a certain degree of jump/run skill requirement to the map that is fun as well.
• Gameplay, IMO, is fun and fast.
• Still think something needs to be done about the MH, e.g. place it where the RG ammo is to get at is via AP more directly.
• And the quick death rate in the map, does indeed make it difficult to manage the significant health impact of rocket jumps to make the MH access practical in such a fast-paced map.

[Eraser]

LEM threads without pictures

[kaustic]

Here are some pics.

[kaustic]

And some more

[kaustic]

The last 3.

[Eraser]

Looks nice! Not sure if I like the brownish sky though. It fits the theme but it does make the whole thing look rather brown. A different color sky might add a bit more contrast.

[obsidian]

Those towers look like they need some kind of purpose. They're not there for structural reasons. Maybe put some spotlights on them, or make them supports for chimneys or mechanical equipment.

I would also do a little more to vary the height of the skyline a bit. Perhaps put some fake structures in the distance to break up the horizon line a bit.

[kaustic]

Funny you should mention the towers Obsidian because I've been thinking that I need to give them a purpose
and was leaning toward spot lights and antennas.

[Hipshot]

Hmm, I don't like the water parts. The shaft isn't good enough to force me down there in that slow pit =) Even if it's my favorite weapon.

I think that the texture with the cracks or whatever on the wall, are upside down, at least it looks like that when I look at the shadowing?

[Theftbot]

WHOA its Hipshot

[kaustic]

Messed around with a few things that were suggested. Some worked out some didn't.
What I did do is, Alter the roofline and applied phong shading to the roof tile texture.
All the hip joints look a lot better and for one in particular it really helped. Phong
shading can be a wonderful thing . I Completely rebuilt the ceiling in the lower
area (where the lightning gun is). No more harsh angles. I kept the texture though
(one of Kats stone textures) and the shader for it. Gave the towers something to do
and added a billboard for when we finally get the sponsor textures. Applied floor tile
texture to the upper rim. Still not sure if I like it or not.
D/L - Removed, Lots of texture changes and brushwork, will update soon.

[AEon]

Consistency time

• I noted you are using the roundish deep-red-orange/grey striped pads for weapon respawn, well for the SG and GL at least. You might like considering making them about 1/3rd less large to give them more subtlety.
• More of these pads are at the foot of (in front of and below of the) RL and the PG, and in front of the RG. These are not used any longer. You could place the RG ammo on the one in front of the PG, and put a 25H in front of the RG IMO. No idea what would go in front of the RL though, You might want to drop the RL pad altogether. The LG needs a pad as well, IMO.
• Now I noted you are using lighter yellow/orange/grey stripes for the metal floor pads, i.e. under the PG and the RL. I like those more to be honest. The pad under the RG is still missing though.
• This could turn out to be ugly, work-wise... but I noted that the textures on the tube leading to the LG are inconsistent in detail. From afar they look fine. The floor metal ones are detailed (this is OK), but especially the angled (with rivets) upper ones look blurry in comparison. I am not sure that you can do here. But it does look strange when you look at the floor and the the angled ones up there once sharp, once blurry.
• About the texture on your upper ledges. Yep, your present texture does not look very nice IMO. I would use your much nicer yellow/orange/grey finer stripe texture here. On the top side I'd add a 1/5th or 1/4th the width of the path there to the outside edges, i.e. as warning trims for a potential fall. The rest of the upper ledges I'd reuse the stone texture you had in a previous iteration. This is the top of the ledge. Personally I would also add the yellow/orange/grey stripe on the upper *side* of the ledges (height about 1/4th of them). To make it cleared when looking from below, something is going on up there, and it has to do with falling.
• On all the entry points to the LG tubes you added double-rectangular lights to the angled trim. I can see the idea behind this, as an entry point marker, but these look strange, IMO, and ugly. Better to try and find some "asian-styled" oil lamp models or something along those lines as deco here.
• New path idea?! The red-onrage/grey striped pad in front of the RG might actually be used as a drop-down hole to the LG area IMO. Or maybe even be a two-way path with another JP. Alternately you might like to simply put a grate up there, to let you look into the dungeon (and out of it). And also get some skylight into the dungeon. This came to me because the round pad seemed so "lost" in the RG arena.
• Should you go for the perilous grate idea, some vines (*greenery*!) hanging in the dungeon would *really* make the place look more organic. And also also break up the monotony of all the crete in the map.
• More greenery in the upper floor areas from cracks in walls would also be nice.

Other thoughts:

• Moving the MH as destination of the AP was a good thing IMO.
• Overall your ledges up there are pretty empty. Some 5H and Shards might be a motivation to move more up here.
• I used noclip to take a very close look at the round tops of your antennas. The spheres actually have cracks in the edges... strange. Not built on grid? I like the antennas though, look nice and motivate the towers more. Maybe span a few "roundish" cables up here as extra deco.

[kaustic]

I'm having Technical Difficulties with one section of my map. I have applied Phong shading to some of my
textures to soften out the sharp angles . In most places its working just fine but in one area its not.
First 2 screenshots you can see are looking fine but the last one you can see that the outside windows are
only half working and have black shadow to the inside. Had the shadow problem in my last comp map but
not sure if the fix for that is relevant here. This is the shader(from Soc's Tutorial). I was messing with the
shade angle to see if it would help (went from 45 up to 90) but no help. If I remove the q3map_nonplanar
will the shader still work as intended?

textures/aty3dm9/wall4
{
q3map_nonplanar
q3map_shadeangle 90
qer_editorimage textures/aty3dm9/wcrete4.tga
{
map $lightmap
rgbGen identity
}
{
map textures/aty3dm9/wcrete4.tga
blendFunc filter
}
}

[kaustic]

Well being persistent pays off sometimes. I tried quite a few different things to fix the Phong
shading issue ,one of which was completely rebuilding those walls to make absolutely sure
that the where on grid but it didn't help I still had the ugly black shadow blobs and the corner
angles still looked sharp. Well the last thing I tried at least fixed the shadow blobs. As for the
rest of it I'm still working on.