Quake3World.com Forums
     Level Editing & Modeling
        Q3ct3 *alpha*


Post new topicReply to topic
Login | Profile | | FAQ | Search | IRC




Print view Previous topic | Next topic 
Topic Starter Topic: Re: Q3ct3 *alpha*

surfaceparm nomarks
surfaceparm nomarks
Joined: 10 Aug 2009
Posts: 1018
PostPosted: 10-24-2009 08:02 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


***UPDATE - Beta4***

Link: http://cityy.explicits.de/uploads/maps/q3ct3_beta4.zip

@ Tabun:

- Thanks for the trim advice :) I started doing it like this at the stairway near the RG room exit. The other trim stuff will be fixed with the next update.

- I'm currently looking through web galleries and other maps to figure out how to improve the lighting.

Quote:
I'd also make the sunlight just slightly more dirty/yellowish.


I would really like to add a custom skybox with better light but I can't get any skybox work for some reason :cry:

- well, I'm not really good in chosing textures. I would really like to replace the concrete texture from the base set but I don't find anything I like.. If I would list everything that I don't like about the textures I wouldn't come to an end in the next two weeks :toothy:

@ AEon: Thanks again for the huge amount of high quality feedback you give :) I liked a lot of your suggestions.

Feedback:

- I'm not sure about the upper corridor from the RL to the LG passing the bridge - it's just too long imo but I don't have an idea what to do here..

- How do folks like the new bridge? :)



_________________
Portfolio
Twitter


Top
                 

Warrior
Warrior
Joined: 07 Aug 2009
Posts: 76
PostPosted: 10-24-2009 08:23 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I was pretty lazy about making my own textures, but since I discovered http://www.cgtextures.com , that has become a breeze. Even if you don't want to do any editing, there's bound to be one or two tiling concrete or stone textures that you may find useful as a replacement?



_________________
www.tabun.nl


Top
                 

surfaceparm nomarks
surfaceparm nomarks
Joined: 10 Aug 2009
Posts: 1018
PostPosted: 10-24-2009 08:42 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I know about CGtextures but it seems like I have no talent for customizing texture references. :(

Edit: Maybe somebody has a quick tutorial link?



_________________
Portfolio
Twitter


Top
                 

Boink!
Boink!
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Posts: 4493
PostPosted: 10-24-2009 09:18 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Makes me smile to see how things change from map version to map version... you keep surprising...

Glad you asked about the LG area ;)... here is how I had imagined it initially:

    Image

    a) As I see it the biggest problem with all this new space is that it "bloats" the map size without actually significantly improving the overall gameflow. IMO, it actually make is a bit tedious here.

    My suggestion would be to place 90° stairs on both sides of the YA, leading up to the upper area on both sides. This keeps in flow, and minimized the amount of extra space the map takes up. And if the angled stairs require too many steps, you could move the YA platform up by 32u or so, thus adding a few extra steps from the lower level to the YA platform and use the rest of the angled stairs to reach the upper level. I'd delete the purple area completely.

    b) It could help to make the RA room a bit larger, and to round off (yellow) the corners into that room. Presently that room feels like it was glued onto the map.

  • The connection between the RL and the "gap" you have to jump via wall brush (path to LG), would probably be better, for the bots as well, if you used some planks here too. I noted that on the LG side you ramped up with some steps, if you take those out the planks could be placed flat on the ground.
  • RG room looks a lot nicer... and the water should work? The RG room is very rectangular presently, making it a but more square might help to make it look more like a room? Or maybe 8-sides?
  • The long stairs from the water up to the RA, are definitely better gameflow-wise than the previous version. I'd still suggest adding a flat area in the middle of the stairs to break up the monotony of so many steps.
  • The new bridge you added is interesting... will need to play more to see how this works. On the plus side it adds a "solid" connection between the two sides of the map, plus will help cut down vis (with some hint brushes). Keeping the walled off side as it is, it might help to make the solid bridge more danger prone from below, e.g. let the see the opponent running or to fire a rocket up here, by reducing the width of the bridge, so that the on it cannot take so much cover? Maybe 30% narrower?
  • With the new bridge, the multi-level arena fighting is starting to take shape. A good thing, IMO.
  • An idea to make the path from the RL to the LG (over that brush gap), less linear, would be to start at the RL, then go onto the "platform bridge" (the GL used to be here), but instead of going forward cut right, covering up the JP below (JP could be placed into the wall near the PG), then cut along the wall until you reach the LG room (i.e. the 90° angled set of YA stairs to be exact). This introduces another upper level - this time open "gallery" - somewhat the way you did this on the RA side. And add another interesting non-linear path. If the idea is unclear, I could sketch it out map-wise (must resist to de-compile map ;) ).
  • Closing off the LG area again, you could then create a niche where the stairs between the LG and YA were, to place the YA out of the direct path of the angled stairs on both sides.

Probably getting carried away here... but I am starting to see the map take shape.

Note: A word of caution... though it is "flattering" that you follow my suggestions, please always be sure you *really* like them yourself. I used to follow external suggestions in AEneon a *lot*... and now I no longer like that map - too much loss of my original vision. IOW, it is much more important that *you* like the map.

P.S. Look for a skybox you like, I can help you get it in the map.

Update:
  • I like the MH "pond".
  • You might like to add a trim edge around the RG hole again.
  • It would be good to choose a white light from Sock's lamp collection, and place them on all the corridor/passage ceilings, e.g. above and around the RL. Should the default intensity be too weak, increase it in the shader.
  • I like how the 25H works out on the planks... bots love it and so does my humble self :).
  • Playing 3 bots (Xaero, Hunter, Klesk) is starting to be a real challenge.




Top
                 

Boink!
Boink!
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Posts: 4493
PostPosted: 10-24-2009 12:07 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Hmm... technically your map still will have a lot of work in store for you. As a test I decompiled your map (wanted to check why the bots do not use the TP, no reason I could see), and looked at it in-editor, and saw quite a few technical issues that may trip you sooner or later. Now unless these are actually issues due to the decompile:

  • You covered the MH hole in the floor with nodraw, this should probably be playerclip? Note you can cover the complete lower level floor with one huge playerclip brush (except the RG room that is lower), the overlap is not a problem really, so you don't need to reproduce the exact 8-sided shape (you can, but you don't need to).

  • Your map is a box map... all your geometry is placed *in* a box. This is very bad for vis calculations, because the compile cannot properly optimize visibility. What you should do is use structural outer walls of your map, as the only connection to the void, and not the box you added around everything. This will be a bit tricky for your skybox. You may need to place a half-box over the top of your map, but following your outer walls.

  • You use cluster portals all over the place. The placement per se seems to be OK, i.e. covering doorways, directly connecting with structural brushes. IIRC, these should *not* overlap with geometry though. (Note to experts here, if I am wrong please correct me). And you should also avoid cutting into patches. The cluster portal should be perpendicular (no angles). If you have a rounded off top of a doorway, place a botclip at the top, to make the area up there "airtight" for the "bot hull", and then place one cluster portal brush over the rest of the doorway (no overlap) - neatly into that gap left. This is to actually make those cluster portals work. You are aware that this is only for the AAS, area bot file right? And that this has nothing to do with the visibility optimizations?

  • You placed hint brushes pretty much where the portals were. This in almost all cases is bad, or actually redundant, because the compile creates portals at doorways automatically. I'd suggest deleting all your hint brushes for now, and leave that for later. Also you should use common/skip (or hintskip) on all faces that should *not* create portals.

  • Your complete map is structural. Not good. Only your outer walls and geometry that is supposed to block visibility (at some point) should be structural, the rest should be detail to reduce your compile times. Careful: You could presently turn everything detail (Selection menu, Make detail (Ctrl+M)) except the "skybox", since this is a box map, your outer hull *is* the "skybox" - but don't. For now mark any "deco", like wooden planks, or lights stuck on walls detail.

  • And you should have serious problems with sparklies (glittering "pixels" a touching edges of brushes and patches). Strange, had not noticed this player the map though.

  • Not sure is these are decompile bugs, but your botclip steps up those large boxes are strangely offset, there is a botclip brush blocking the direct path to the SG (RG hole room), and some nodraw brush seems to be floating above the MH.

  • All the 5H in the corridor to the LG are stuck in the floor, that's the reason the game does note show them.

  • Tip: Water brushes do not need to fill out the space you place them in exactly. A bit of overlap is actually a good thing, provided the brush is lower than the floor level. Thus you can use one water brush for the RG room instead of two. Using several water brushes often leads to weird artifacts, IIRC.

Fear not... we all had to learn these technical things, ask in this thread. Your map works as it is, but it is wasting resources, i.e. it is not taking advantage of what the compiler could do for you.




Top
                 

surfaceparm nomarks
surfaceparm nomarks
Joined: 10 Aug 2009
Posts: 1018
PostPosted: 10-24-2009 12:25 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Hehe, I know the map is technically trash :D You know, it's the first map where I got to the point of technical optimizing and I don't know a shit. Until this point I learned mapping by "try and error" and reading these forums - seems like I will have to study a tutorial about this stuff (maybe you can recommend one?) I was always afraid you would decompile the map (((((:



_________________
Portfolio
Twitter


Top
                 

Boink!
Boink!
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Posts: 4493
PostPosted: 10-24-2009 12:47 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I'd recommend looking into the Starting Quake Mapping - Link Resources sticky thread in this forum. Alas, I have not looked into manuals / tutorials in a very long time, so I have no idea what more recent "good" tutorials there are.




Top
                 

Grunt
Grunt
Joined: 10 Jun 2009
Posts: 64
PostPosted: 10-24-2009 02:53 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


For lighting theory, this is a short but good read.
http://www.hourences.com/book/booklighting.htm




Top
                 

surfaceparm nomarks
surfaceparm nomarks
Joined: 10 Aug 2009
Posts: 1018
PostPosted: 10-25-2009 02:37 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


@ AEon: Most of the links in this thread seem to be dead but I guess I will find some tutorials with google's help :)

@ tehSandwich: Thanks! I will take a look into it after I fixed the technical stuff.



_________________
Portfolio
Twitter


Top
                 

Boink!
Boink!
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Posts: 4493
PostPosted: 10-25-2009 03:57 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I wanted to read up on bot clipping yesterday, because I remembered reading about that ages ago, it seems that Cardigan had such tutorials, but his "planetquake" hosted site is dead, like all other sites there. You can use google to find such pages and then look into the cached version. But it seems quite a lot of good info has dies with the shutting down of the planet site hosting. :(

We might want to start collecting the tutorials that have been lost, i.e. the links to them. I'd then probably update our link resources.




Top
                 

surfaceparm nomarks
surfaceparm nomarks
Joined: 10 Aug 2009
Posts: 1018
PostPosted: 10-25-2009 04:22 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Yeah, very sad that planetquake stops hosting service. I found some kind of guide about hint brushes (http://www.nibsworld.com/rtcw/tutorial_detail_and_hint_brushes_part1.shtml) and read parts of the gtkradiant guide. Now I know that I pretty much failed with everything you could fail with :toothy: Well, I will look into the hint thingie and see what I can do with detail brushes - tho my burshwork became very unclean because of all the changes from the original layout to the most recent versions. I don't think I will clean up the whole brush work because if I would do so I would have to completely rework the map and this wouldn't be worth the effort, IMO. Looking forward to optimize and finish this one and planning/doing everything better in the next map.

Edit: Thinking of dropping this at all.



_________________
Portfolio
Twitter


Top
                 

Boink!
Boink!
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Posts: 4493
PostPosted: 10-25-2009 04:45 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Note: Things like a caulk hull are not really needed for your map. You can keep most the geometry solid as it is... just turn some of the "deco" to detail. Also note, you should finalize the layout before you do any hinting.

Edit: Thinking of dropping this at all.
    Do you mean dropping the map as it is, and to start a new one?




Top
                 

surfaceparm nomarks
surfaceparm nomarks
Joined: 10 Aug 2009
Posts: 1018
PostPosted: 10-25-2009 04:53 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Yea, I think of stopping working on this one or completely redoing it later since it seems to be a complete technical fail. :toothy:



_________________
Portfolio
Twitter


Top
                 

Boink!
Boink!
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Posts: 4493
PostPosted: 10-25-2009 05:02 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Pity, I was looking forward to the next changes.

The technical stuff is several hours of work, once you know what to look out for, so it's not such a terminal issue.




Top
                 

Warrior
Warrior
Joined: 07 Aug 2009
Posts: 76
PostPosted: 10-25-2009 05:04 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I wouldn't drop this one so quickly. You've got important work done to get it to play good, right? Wouldn't waste that just because it needs fixing up..



_________________
www.tabun.nl


Top
                 

surfaceparm nomarks
surfaceparm nomarks
Joined: 10 Aug 2009
Posts: 1018
PostPosted: 10-25-2009 09:28 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


It might take some days until I have the next update ready - tho I'm on it. Thanks for pushing me :toothy:



_________________
Portfolio
Twitter


Top
                 

surfaceparm nomarks
surfaceparm nomarks
Joined: 10 Aug 2009
Posts: 1018
PostPosted: 10-26-2009 02:45 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I figured out the areas which make the most problems.


This is at the YA near the LG - without fps cap I'm getting arround 170 fps here and r_speeds are arround 10k. As you see nearly the whole map is rendered from this place :/


At the RG room exit.


At the RL.

I also loaded the .prt file in radiant and all I can say is wtf...

As far as I understood the stuff I read about hint-, detail brushes and portals - this is not good.

Tho there are also some positiv things to say. I removed the box arround the map and cleaned up some of the brush work ( I deleted arround 100k of brushes I actually didn't need :toothy: ). I also worked on caulking brushes immediatly when I'm drawing them and using as less brushes as possible.

Atm I'm on finishing the layout and converting all the structual brushes into detail brushes ( as far as it is possible). For this reason the will be an update sooner than I thought - I would like to know what folks think about the RA area before I start hinting.

Edit: I found an awesome guide about hints in the valve developer wiki: http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Hint_brush



_________________
Portfolio
Twitter


Top
                 

Boink!
Boink!
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Posts: 4493
PostPosted: 10-26-2009 03:53 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


You may want to release the .map file for your next version (for possible help on hint brushes + other technical feedback), and please also start placing all the textures into one textures/q3ct3/ folder, and fix the shader paths, only using one scripts/q3ct3.shader file (removing all the shaders you are not using). I actually did just that on the decompile, to not spam up my development folders.

About the HL2 article... your are probably aware of this: The hint face should be covered with common/hint and all other faces of the "hint brush" with common/skip. The basics in the article seem fine, a few examples that are called "work", are not optimal... so placing hint brushes parallel to the grid, without a *really* good reason should only be done if they actually have a function.

The process of hinting usually works like this: Load the map (via devmap), use a key to show the geometry (I use the Alt key: bind ALT "toggle r_showtris"), then wander around the map, and start looking at walls facing towards the middle of the map... the wall *should* not draw anything behind it. If it does some exploration is required. The idea normally is to check where you are seeing too much geometry, think of a way your structural elements in the map could block the view, to the add hint brushes. Add the brush, compile (bsp & vis is enough, no need for light compile), load map again and check the hint brush helped or not... repeat... it's a bit tedious, but the only way to ensure the hint brushes are working, and not just bloat.

Also remember that any wall that was turned detail no longer blocks vis, so you should not turn everything detail *inside* the map, i.e. walls and some of the walkways are important to block vis in the map. You may be seeing the whole map because "everything" (i.e. too much) was turned detail.

(Just mentioning some things to ensure your are aware of them, you probably know most of this already).




Top
                 

surfaceparm nomarks
surfaceparm nomarks
Joined: 10 Aug 2009
Posts: 1018
PostPosted: 10-26-2009 04:25 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


After adding detail brushes r_speeds value raised... It also seems like some brushes disappeard at all and the r_speeds value raised.

The process of hinting seems to be a complex thing - logical on the on hand but also hard to do it in radiant. :paranoid:
I'll try arround with some things.

Yea, I noticed other maps only have one texture folder and also only one shader - I'll look into that.



_________________
Portfolio
Twitter


Top
                 

surfaceparm nomarks
surfaceparm nomarks
Joined: 10 Aug 2009
Posts: 1018
PostPosted: 10-29-2009 02:05 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I'm working on this map now since several months and I don't see that I come to a releaseable result within the next ~4-6 weeks. For some reasons that I'll probably never know half of the brush work disappeard during the last compile process and decompiling. My motivation to finish this one is somewhere arround 0 - working on the same map for months without getting a releasable result is just boring and pointless, IMO. Though I learned a lot during the building process of the map because of the technical problems I had to face and the feedback given in thread. Thanks for that :) What I want to do now is starting working on a new map. Maybe I revisit this one later..



_________________
Portfolio
Twitter


Top
                 

Warrior
Warrior
Joined: 07 Aug 2009
Posts: 76
PostPosted: 10-29-2009 04:41 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


If you do come back to it, I suggest you take up AEons advice and release the map file (even if only sent as a personal message). That will clear up misunderstandings and give you new practical ideas in no-time!



_________________
www.tabun.nl


Top
                 

surfaceparm nomarks
surfaceparm nomarks
Joined: 10 Aug 2009
Posts: 1018
PostPosted: 10-29-2009 04:57 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I think I will release the map file with every map in future - I was actually really happy about AEon's offer.



_________________
Portfolio
Twitter


Top
                 

surfaceparm nomarks
surfaceparm nomarks
Joined: 10 Aug 2009
Posts: 1018
PostPosted: 11-14-2009 06:34 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


AEon wrote:
please also start placing all the textures into one textures/q3ct3/ folder


I want to start doing this with my new map q3ct4.
Is there an easier way to do it than creating a "textures/q3ct4/" folder in my baseq3, sorting in the textures I need and rexturing the map completely?



_________________
Portfolio
Twitter


Top
                 

Warrior
Warrior
Joined: 07 Aug 2009
Posts: 76
PostPosted: 11-14-2009 07:08 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


You can do a find/replace through the texture-window's menu. Shouldn't take too long, unless you're using a lot of different textures (if so, you might try editing the .map file's ascii directly?).



_________________
www.tabun.nl


Top
                 

surfaceparm nomarks
surfaceparm nomarks
Joined: 10 Aug 2009
Posts: 1018
PostPosted: 11-14-2009 07:21 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Ahh ok, just wanted to know if I can save some work (:



_________________
Portfolio
Twitter


Top
                 

Boink!
Boink!
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Posts: 4493
PostPosted: 11-14-2009 07:22 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


There are a few tools that can make it easier, though as a programmer I normally edit the .map file directly with UltraEdit. That took me about 5 minutes at the most, you just need to look up the texture folder names the present textures need, and rename them all to q3ct3 in the .map and in the .shader file.

MapShader... will go through your map and look up all the shaders it requires merging them into one file. This works pretty well as long as you do not use ASE models. This should save you a lot of time finding the proper shaders.

The other tool: Q3Map2 Toolz lets you create a complete map PK3 file with shaders and all textures etc. I used that only when I was using many textures. You probably won't really need that because you have the textures sorted out already.




Top
                 

surfaceparm nomarks
surfaceparm nomarks
Joined: 10 Aug 2009
Posts: 1018
PostPosted: 11-14-2009 07:36 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I did it with the find/replace method as Tabun suggested. Took me a few seconds since I'm currently only using 5 textures. Will switch over to editing then map file when the amount of textures grows, I guess. This MapShader plugin(?) sounds really usefull.



_________________
Portfolio
Twitter


Top
                 

Mercenary
Mercenary
Joined: 07 Sep 2009
Posts: 230
PostPosted: 11-14-2009 07:59 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


my 2 cents... the water seems out of place.. maybe make an electrical deathpit or something??

and more importantly this ceiling is not clipped. u can bascailly run through the whole map
Image
and yes tabun he did box out the map with the skybox.



_________________
NRC
Defrag
Q3 Map Archive


Top
                 

Mercenary
Mercenary
Joined: 07 Sep 2009
Posts: 230
PostPosted: 11-14-2009 08:00 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


christ so many posts in the 20 minutes that i started looking at this thread.



_________________
NRC
Defrag
Q3 Map Archive


Top
                 

Boink!
Boink!
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Posts: 4493
PostPosted: 11-14-2009 08:37 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


MapShader is an external tool (adding it as a plugin would be neat though :)). Our resource forum thread should have a link to it.




Top
                 

The Afflicted
The Afflicted
Joined: 28 Apr 2008
Posts: 530
PostPosted: 12-20-2009 05:32 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


cityy, don't be bothered about losing any will to finish your work just because you couldn't achieve to release it within a few weeks or months. As time goes by (while you're working on newer projects) your interest in this old one that you had to leave unfinished just because somthing seemed to be too complicated and not worth the effort (like hinting) will rise again and you'll soon be working on the thing before you know (I know what I'm speaking/writing of). :D



_________________
If you are caught on a golf course during a storm and are afraid of lightning, hold up a 1-iron. Not even God can hit a 1-iron.
-Lee Trevino, golfer who actually has been struck by lightning.


Top
                 
Quake3World.com | Forum Index | Level Editing & Modeling


Post new topic Reply to topic


cron
Quake3World.com
© ZeniMax. Zenimax, QUAKE III ARENA, Id Software and associated trademarks are trademarks of the ZeniMax group of companies. All rights reserved.
This is an unofficial fan website without any affiliation with or endorsement by ZeniMax.
All views and opinions expressed are those of the author.