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Topic Starter Topic: Q3ct3 *alpha*

surfaceparm nomarks
surfaceparm nomarks

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PostPosted: 09-27-2009 04:41 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I could finally convince myself to come up with an aplha version of my map q3ct3 - kosmos.
There is not much detail yet - for now I'm wondering about the layout. :toothy:

Screenshot:



Download:

http://cityy.explicits.de/uploads/maps/q3ct3.zip

I recommend to play the map in cpma, tourney.

- cityy :)



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PostPosted: 09-27-2009 05:51 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Please update your pk3 with all the missing files:

Code:
WARNING: could not find sound/misc/windfly.wav - using default
trying textures/tech1soc_trim/032-15a.TGA...
trying textures/tech1soc_trim/s256-01c.TGA...
trying textures/tech1soc_wall/met_wall01d.TGA...
trying textures/tech1soc_floor/jp15a.TGA...
trying textures/tech1soc_wall/grill_wall10a.TGA...
trying textures/tech1soc_trim/s256-01a.TGA...
trying textures/e7/e7brnmetal.TGA...
trying textures/tech1soc_trim/s256-02a.TGA...
trying textures/tech1soc_trim/s128-03a.TGA...
trying textures/tech1soc_mach/panel40b.TGA...


For better feedback :)




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surfaceparm nomarks
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PostPosted: 09-27-2009 06:31 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


oops, those textures are actually in the pk3 - just forgott to sort them in the right folders :S



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surfaceparm nomarks
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PostPosted: 09-27-2009 06:56 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Link updated: http://cityy.explicits.de/uploads/maps/q3ct3.zip

Sorry for my fault <3



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Grunt
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PostPosted: 09-27-2009 08:28 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


!WARNING! The reply below is image extensive.

So far, the layout is really good. Though, i have many tidbits on this version.






A stray brush.



I don't know... this teleporter looks boring.



You probably need to fix that.




I am not a fan of this path, it just looks pointless.



I would make this path a bridge.



If this window was really open, the upper half would be concrete and the other half is open to the LG room.

Now this is rocket-jump time!


I could see myself using that window as an ambush route.



I can rocket-jump from the window ledges.



There too.



You should really need to cauld that place over there and clip it off.



Still on the roof, Missing texture.



Was this place supposed to be something before?




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PostPosted: 09-27-2009 08:53 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


The "stray brush" is probably a trick jump, from the RL area you may be able to actually directly reach the RG opening. Only in vQ3 I don't seem to have the skill to do that (just noted the map is for CMPA, no wonder ;)).

Some comments:
  • As a tourney map - playing Xaero on Hardcore - the map works relatively well, but since it is, IMO, needlessly spread out a bit you need some time to find the opponent at times.
  • Overall the map is quite horizontal with two levels. The MH at the map center works well. I'd suggest you introduce a 3rd level in your map, select the complete YA area (near the PQ), and bring the lower end of stairs up to the PG level, placing the YA even higher. Try to drape the map arround the MH as central focus, this should help to concentrate the map, and add more vertical action.
  • You have to duck for the RG... this is *slow* not so sure this is so good. If you actually can trick-jump directly to the RG, then this is OK (sorta), but alas no good for vQ3.
  • Another issue for vQ3 are the boxes that let you reach the PG... well in vQ3 you cannot overcome the last jump... this is kinda frustrating. Xaero that cheater seems to have a bit of botclip help. He can climb those cubes backwards!
  • Xearo also cheats when accessing the RG directly, I think (did not see it). But I wonder how he got the RG. Did you add a bot-only spawn point in the RG "room"?
  • I am not a really tactical player, but "the back area" of the map, corridor from LG right up to the JP leading to the RL, is pretty dead. Here the draping around the MH area should help the map a lot, IMO.
  • I know this is dumbing down the map, but when on the RL side, you jump to the PG side, the bot will not make it... maybe add some planks/bridge here. As a "skill" test this is too easy for CPMA anyway, because even I in vQ3 can make it always ;). Though I suspect when on the RL side, you can jump from the YA to the PG side as well, in CPMA.

Before you add further details to the map, I'd suggest more work on the layout... deco can then be added more "permanently" once the gameflow is done. Hope this helps.




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surfaceparm nomarks
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PostPosted: 09-27-2009 09:23 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


@ tehSandwich:
As AEon mentioned below your post this stray brush is an alternative way to the RG. It will become some kind of lamp/torch later on.
You may not find clip/caulk brushes anywhere since I'm currently on the layout of the map. Tho you've mentioned a lot of things that are wrong with the visual style of the map - gonna remember that later on. I'm not sure how I want to make the teleporter look like, maybe you got some suggestions?!

@ AEon:

My problem with adding a 3rd floor at this place is that the stairway would become very long and there would have to be another way up to the YA which would slow down IMO - tho, I'm gonna think about how to solve this..

I'm also not sure about the way to the RG - thought about some kind of hole through which you can drop down to RG. Anyway,
I also like the idea that you have to duck since it doesn't make you that slow because of the slick brush at the entrance.

Didn't notice that VQ3 boxes problem yet - only play the map in cpma. Will be fixed tho. Yes there is a bot clip, otherwise bots wont get up to the PG since they dont take the jump pad and the teleporter :/

No, he doesn't cheat there and there is no bot spawn either :) some time ago I spectated a bot duel on the map seeing xaero going for the RG the regular way, what tbh really surprised me! Uriel also goes for the RG as far as I noticed.

I don't really get how you mean draping arround the MH!? You mean giving players another reason to use this corridor? Atm I thought about this corridor to be a good place to respawn since your have LG/RL/MH/YA right next to the spawn.

I thought about that a lot - as you said it's just a tele jump in cpma and a single circle jump in vq3. Since tehSandwich has also mentioned it I'm pretty sure I'll add that planks/bridge.

Quote:
Before you add further details to the map, I'd suggest more work on the layout...


That's what I will do, ty both helped a lot :)



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Insane Quaker
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PostPosted: 09-27-2009 09:55 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I just ran through this for about 15 minutes. I haven't actually played a game but here are some things I noticed. (A lot of these competitive tourney concepts are *VERY* new to me, so bear with me, and help me out by correcting me if you see a fault in my logic.)

- The flow of this map seems like it should be a little more circular. The YA area by the LG (which is kind of a U-turn) is a great little example of what it feels like for me to run the whole map. You start somewhere near the core area (the MH), enter a branching pathway, get an item, and then come back to the center area after running some sort of semi-circle path. I agree with AEon that the map should drape around the MH more, and the "drapes" should flow with each other. Basically, try connecting all these little secondary loops more. Things will still focus around the MH without actually forcing players to constantly return to that area.

- About the levels, I also agree with AEon. I was wondering why I was able to completely learn the layout after running two laps around it. Then I realized it's only two perfectly flat levels. This makes the map easy to learn but it's also very boring and cripples its lifespan. I don't think you need to add an entirely new third tier to the floorplan, but you should at least vary elevation a bit. A good place to start would be the (kind of weak) PG level. Raise it a few 64s to give it an advantage over the very strong RL area that needs more weak points.

- Right now your major armor items are two YAs and an MH. This is probably going to result in one player grabbing the MH and YA near the LG and the other getting stuck with just the YA near the RG. You may want to make the YA near the RG an RA if you find this creates too much imbalance.

- I think the area closer to the RG needs another weapon for the recently spawned player. Imagine how easy it would be for someone to camp the RL and cut you off completely from the rest of the map. I think a secondary SG would be perfect right in the center of that YA room.

- Health is scattered evenly about the map in the form of 25s. This reduces health and recovery strategy. Lately in my maps I've been trying to figure out the places where players would naturally run to recover. The ideal place is usually somewhere with cover that is easy to escape to. I find these places and put a solid amount of low-risk, easily accessible health there. The rest of my map gets health in more open, high-risk areas without much cover. So players shouldn't have too much trouble getting the high-risk health when no one is around, but if they need to replenish their health in the heat of the action, they have to escape to the recovery area, where they aren't such easy targets.

- You should caulk your alphas. Not for performance, but to make it easier to noclip up to the top of the map and study it from a bird's eye view. This way people can get to know the map quicker, take screenshots, and maybe highlight certain areas for you. Right now most of the map is blocked by the textured ceilings.

P.S. Q3W is telling me you responded to AEon after I started writing this. So just pretend this post came before your response because I haven't read it yet.




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surfaceparm nomarks
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PostPosted: 09-27-2009 10:25 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Quote:
I just ran through this for about 15 minutes. I haven't actually played a game but here are some things I noticed. (A lot of these competitive tourney concepts are *VERY* new to me, so bear with me, and help me out by correcting me if you see a fault in my logic.)


I'm pretty much newbie here too :D
Quote:
A good place to start would be the (kind of weak) PG level. Raise it a few 64s to give it an advantage over the very strong RL area that needs more weak points.



I love this idea - pretty sure I will do this!
Quote:
- Right now your major armor items are two YAs and an MH. This is probably going to result in one player grabbing the MH and YA near the LG and the other getting stuck with just the YA near the RG. You may want to make the YA near the RG an RA if you find this creates too much imbalance.


Gonna think about that when major layout is finished. I will keep it in mind. :)

Quote:
- I think the area closer to the RG needs another weapon for the recently spawned player. Imagine how easy it would be for someone to camp the RL and cut you off completely from the rest of the map. I think a secondary SG would be perfect right in the center of that YA room.


I also agree with this point! Didn't think about that yet. I'm also unsure about the spawn points in that area - maybe some1 can give feedback!?

- I'm currently pretty fine with the position of the 25s. I was thinking about +5s but I couldnt get a clear opinion about where to place them.

Quote:
- You should caulk your alphas. Not for performance, but to make it easier to noclip up to the top of the map and study it from a bird's eye view. This way people can get to know the map quicker, take screenshots, and maybe highlight certain areas for you. Right now most of the map is blocked by the textured ceilings.


Going to do that.



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surfaceparm nomarks
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PostPosted: 09-28-2009 11:28 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Update:

http://cityy.explicits.de/uploads/maps/q3ct3_alpha2.zip - Alpha 2



Added planks at TP exit.



PG area is a little bit higher now.



Some changes here - now a JP leads to rg. YA is on a higher level. Added a GL.



Yout have to drop down to RG now.



Fixed the boxes.

Other Changes:

Replaced the YA at PG with a RA - added caulk - changed some 25 positions.

Not sure about:

Spawn points, alternative way to the RG, the RA and other things...

- cityy :)



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PostPosted: 09-29-2009 03:22 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I seem to be "messing" into quite a few maps lately... hmm... anyway ;):

  • I like those planks, they connect the map better for the bots, and you can now jump from the YA window onto the planks leading to the PG. Low-skill for pros, but "fun" for the rest of us.
  • You might like to add more botclip to let Xaero climb those boxes to reach the PG. Presently he does not seem to be able to get up there, and that messes with the bots AI, AFAICT. The bot does not seem to use the JP nearby.
  • I'd add 2x25 spread out where the SG is, i.e. under cover, to let the player gain health, should the MH be gone or too dangerous to grab.
  • This is a bit radical, but IMO, the long paths from the RG room to the MH, are simply too long. You may want to move the closer edge of the RG room, looking from the MH, to were the YA presently is. Thus very much compacting the map in that area. You'll need to move the stairs etc, but that should be possible.
  • After compacting you might even want to move the RG room *under* the map. E.g. under the GL, around there, create a hole to jump down into the room, and then TP out of that room again. Anyone camping/hiding in that room gets hit by the GL from above. Might even cover the ceiling of the small RG room with grates.




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surfaceparm nomarks
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PostPosted: 09-29-2009 06:24 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


@ AEon:

Quote:
You might like to add more botclip to let Xaero climb those boxes to reach the PG


Gonna do that.

Quote:
The bot does not seem to use the JP nearby.

I also noticed bots don't use any JP and the teleporter neither. Anyone knows how to make them notice the JPs/TP?

Quote:
I'd add 2x25 spread out where the SG is, i.e. under cover, to let the player gain health, should the MH be gone or too dangerous to grab.


I thought about adding a 25 at the stairway. I think 2 would be too much since there is already one 25 on the way to the RG.

Quote:
This is a bit radical, but IMO, the long paths from the RG room to the MH, are simply too long.


My problem there is that I dont want the YA level to become too small. I'm pretty fine with the size of the ya room atm. I also think that making this corridor shorter would encourage the player to use it more often - IMO grabbing the MH, then passing the LG, going up to the RL and having a lot of new possibilities what to do is better or saver than using the long corridor leading to rg room. Since ppl may not use the LG way that often making the way to rg room shorter would totally kill the path near the lg. That's what I think.

To your suggestion to the rg room:

I think this would make it really dangerous to take the rg. IMO you already can pretty much controle the rg room with nades. It's even easier in cpma since the cpma nades fly further and explode later than the vq3 nades.

Don't stop to "mess" please =)

What do folks think about spawn points and the RA? Any other feedback?



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surfaceparm nomarks
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PostPosted: 09-30-2009 10:54 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I need some help. As I mentioned earlier in the thread I'm wondering what makes bots use jumppads.
After some research I know now that bots may use a jumppad if it's the shortest way to get an item.

My problem is here:



Bots don't take this jumppad - even tho there are two ammo boxes and the PG on this upper area. When I played q3dm6 I noticed that bots also take the jumppad from MH up to the RL or the JP up to the RG - why don't they take the JPs in my map then?!

Some help would be great :confused:

-cityy



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Insane Quaker
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PostPosted: 09-30-2009 12:03 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Do you know about item_botroams? They are like fake entities that only bots can see and you can set the weight of them based on how high of a priority they should be for bots.




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PostPosted: 09-30-2009 12:07 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Some ideas:
  • Possibly the JP destination entity is not high enough above the upper ledge.
  • Or it slams the bot into the upper ledge.
  • Using a botroam entity is very problematic, because it badly messes up the bot's AI (most of the time). But worth one test.




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The Illuminated
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PostPosted: 09-30-2009 06:02 PM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


botroams are finicky things. I had to use a few in my quicke alpha to balance each other out. One botroam tends to unbalance the bots behavior and they'll often ignore good weapons in favor of the lesser weapons closer to the botroam.

Play with them. You'll eventually find the equilibrium needed to get the bots running right.



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surfaceparm nomarks
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PostPosted: 10-14-2009 11:43 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Made the jump pads work - thanks everyone for the help. Just want to finish this map now - I discoverd that I'm not that good in creating textures and working on visuals but here is a screenshot of what I'm currently doing:




I'm looking forward to an update soon. Don't have much time because of school..



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PostPosted: 10-14-2009 11:22 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Well I love your red light (Andromeda texture set!) and the tubes in the background.




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surfaceparm nomarks
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PostPosted: 10-15-2009 04:01 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Ye, just downloaded the set after you featured it in your template textures thread - thank you for that :)
Imho, the Andromeda texture set looks wierd in combinition with socks tech textures - tho I love both and this light textures fits the map's sheme very well. Also got the idea of orange/red lights from the andromeda set.

My biggest problem atm is the YA room - it's so open. I find it hard to make it look interesting. Looking forward to a screenshot today.

EDIT:

Screenshots:



The way down to the RG.



The LG room - I will add some more lights here soon. Choice of textures is also not final yet.



The room of all my problems... Any ideas what todo here? :confused:

BTW:

Image

I would like those little light spots to send out light - would it be possible to do that with a shader?



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Immortal
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PostPosted: 10-15-2009 05:51 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


turn down your ambient light level, its missing contrast




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PostPosted: 10-15-2009 08:01 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Wow, I totally forgott that I was still using ambient light :toothy: Thanks fkd - lowerd it to 15.

That's what it looks like now:





Sorry for the image spamm today <3



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PostPosted: 10-15-2009 09:07 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Some thoughts:
  • 1st shot in the group of 4 above: Your hole in the floor could use some sort of edge texture (i.e. trim). The cut into the metal grate floor looks a bit "unfinished" as it is.
  • Same image: The vertical "tube-ish" texture looks good as trim on the left/right wall, but "splashing" all three walls surrounding the hole with this texture less so. I'd suggest using a different texture/set of textures here.
  • 3rd shot of 4: The problem shot. Some things to try: Add a row of vertical tubes on the right side of the wall leading the camera. The idea would be to make the path up there less wide. IMO, presently is it clearly *too* wide. Another thing you can additionally try, is to add some more floor deco to help reduce the monotony of the floor area. You might need to have to do something in 3D, but we'd need a more recent update of the map to be able to provide suggestions.
  • 1st shot in the group of 2: You will be using a patch on the right side ceiling, right? Instead of those angles brushes?

Nice lighting!




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surfaceparm nomarks
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PostPosted: 10-15-2009 09:57 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


@ AEon:

Quote:
1st shot in the group of 4 above: Your hole in the floor could use some sort of edge texture (i.e. trim). The cut into the metal grate floor looks a bit "unfinished" as it is.


Yep, I agree, gonna use the same texture as for the other levels trim.

Quote:
Same image: The vertical "tube-ish" texture looks good as trim on the left/right wall, but "splashing" all three walls surrounding the hole with this texture less so. I'd suggest using a different texture/set of textures here.


I will think about that - for now I can say that I share your opinion but I can't say yet what I will do.

Quote:
3rd shot of 4: The problem shot. Some things to try: Add a row of vertical tubes on the right side of the wall leading the camera. The idea would be to make the path up there less wide. IMO, presently is it clearly *too* wide. Another thing you can additionally try, is to add some more floor deco to help reduce the monotony of the floor area. You might need to have to do something in 3D, but we'd need a more recent update of the map to be able to provide suggestions.


I will try the tube thing. Yea, I know giving feedback from screenshots is kinda hard. No school the next 2 weeks - that means that I will release a new version within this time.

Quote:
1st shot in the group of 2: You will be using a patch on the right side ceiling, right? Instead of those angles brushes?


Yes, I will :toothy: This was just a cloned brush from the top RG area. *lazy*

Thanks - I'm doing my best :)

I would like to add a custom skybox to the map or just try how it looks like but I can't get it working..
I downloaded the skybox collection from lvlworld and choose myself a skybox I like. My problem is that I don't know how to place the textures after I placed the shader in the scripts folder :toothy: Tryed different ways but I don't get how to place it the right way. :confused:

/me feels so noob right now :toothy:



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PostPosted: 10-15-2009 11:05 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I spent some minutes to think about your suggestions - see the result:



Vertical tubes looked weird to me so I decided to do it like this. Replaced the ugly brushes with patches; also added trim to the area above the RG room. Gonna make the tubes in the wall shorter soon. Also thinking about JP textures atm - I don't know much about shaders but I would rly like to add JP decals like they are done in SolarAE or in Hipshot's maps.

Off for today, cya :)

-cityy



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PostPosted: 10-16-2009 12:54 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


New stuff :) Added some more height detail.



Still, some more tweaking needed here but you can already see in which direction I want to go.



Reworked the tower and added some more tube stuff.



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PostPosted: 10-17-2009 02:38 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


See the latest crap I produced :toothy: :





FPS starts droping - I have to add caulk brushes and all this stuff soon. Update maybe on monday.



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PostPosted: 10-18-2009 11:58 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


***UPDATE***

Latest beta:

http://cityy.explicits.de/uploads/maps/q3ct3_beta.zip

Sorry for the post spamm the last few days, I will work on summing up my posts in the future. Tho, enjoy the update - I hope I didn't forgett to include any textures. :toothy:

- cityy :)



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PostPosted: 10-18-2009 12:49 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


The map is starting to look really nice, but as I feared most folks will probably never see all the cool details way up in the map.

A few things:
  • You are missing some textures and a sound in VQ3:
      WARNING: could not find sound/misc/windfly.wav - using default
      trying textures/ctf/metal_b.TGA...
      trying textures/ctf/metal_r.TGA...
  • There is some really ugly issue, probably with caulk textures, in the RG room, the walls are showing the void.
  • The floor trim near the TP/SG wall with the tubes, should not end just before the tubes, but pass right under them, IMO. The cut off trim looks a bit weird presently.
  • You might want to pick an Andromeda JP texture for all your JPs, and use an Andromeda shader for them.
  • I am not sure two RLs is a good thing. You may want to replace the more central RL with a PG.
  • The JP to the RG "hole" has a bit of an overbouce, and also pushes the player into the wall.

IMO, the layout still is missing something, though I have a hard time pointing out what exactly. Probably a 3rd height level, allowing for some clever vertical fights. Presently the 2nd level area with the RL (the one near the RA) is a bit dead. But then again I am not a 1on1 player, so I may well be missing some tactics.




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surfaceparm nomarks
surfaceparm nomarks

Joined: 10 Aug 2009
Posts: 875
PostPosted: 10-19-2009 09:33 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


***UPDATE: Beta2***

Link: http://cityy.explicits.de/uploads/maps/q3ct3_beta2.zip

Changes:

- fixed the caulk issue at the RG room - I should have been visiting it before uploading the map :toothy:
- worked on the floor trim at the tubes
- added jumppad textures from sock's tech set.
@ AEon: I was messing arround with the andromeda jumppad textures and imo they are too blueish and in the end I liked the shader of sock's textures more - freaky colors :)
- removed the second RL - I wasn't sure about it anyway
- tweaked RG jumppad

Layout changes:

- added an additional way up to the PG area
- Added an extra room at the PG are containing another YA and LG ammo
- added 5 armor shards in front if this room to give the area more importance - now you can take up a total amor amount of 75 visiting this area

Some things btw:

Quote:
WARNING: could not find sound/misc/windfly.wav - using default

I don't know how to fix this :cry:

Known bugs:

- badly sized brush at the RL
- texture issue at the PG jumppad

As usual I hope that I didn't forgett anything, enjoy!

Thank you for the latest feedback.

- cityy :)



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Boink!
Boink!

Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Posts: 4143
PostPosted: 10-19-2009 10:24 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Have not tested the map yet, but concerning:
    WARNING: could not find sound/misc/windfly.wav - using default
there are several ways to track this:
  • Open the .map in a programmers editor (well, notepad will do also), search for "windfly", and then manually delete the entity calling this sound. Bit tricky, you'd have to understand the {} blocks in a map source.
  • You must have more than one sound entity in the map. Select one, then do a Shift+a, this will select *all* sound entities. You should then be able to find any possibly "hidden" entities. You'll need to go through them all one by one though.




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surfaceparm nomarks
surfaceparm nomarks

Joined: 10 Aug 2009
Posts: 875
PostPosted: 10-19-2009 10:39 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Quote:
search for "windfly"


No results here :/

Quote:
You must have more than one sound entity in the map.


Sound entities? :toothy: /afk google



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PostPosted: 10-19-2009 11:05 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Hmm... strange about windfly... no idea why it's not possible to track the warning.

About the changes:
  • The new YA area is neat, a bit "cramped" maybe, but looks nice and definitely helps that area. Now you actually have a meaningful paths on the upper level.
  • Personally I'd swap the new YA with the RA. Presently you can easily grab the MH and then strafe-jump right to the RA in no time. "Hiding" the RA on the upper level would make that a bit more difficult.
  • The new JP that pushes you towards the bridge is an interesting idea. I like the 90° stairs there. Though I had the feeling the JP here was redundant, I'd suggest you try using more of those 90° stairs to build a path up to the upper level, without requiring a JP.
  • The PG JP and the one near the RL both have over-bounce. The JP to the RG now works.
  • Had some interesting bot fights with Xearo, the map is definitely getting better gameplay-wise.
  • Someone else my need to verify this, but I am experiencing very bad FPS drops when rotating in several areas of the map. E.g. looking towards the RA and then turning around to look at the MH, or when rotation near the RG YA, looking towards the RL. There seems to be a massive vis issue, when looking towards the center of the map. Maybe my PC was overheating. Hmmm.

    If not... you may need to look into hint brushes to optimize the map some more... this may require a change in geometry to block off some areas vis-wise. Note: I have not looked into this in any detail, just mention it as a future "warning", since you are still adding details.
  • I was actually able to do the strafe jump onto the bar, reaching the RG directly in vQ3... whee ;).
  • GL will get a weapon pad right?
  • The "weird" colors you use for the JPs... well may be a bit too weird?


Update:
  • You will need to add more "filler" lights. My TFT is very sensitive to dark maps, i.e. it has trouble showing them properly. That way I notice too dark maps very quickly. I have trouble seeing Xaero because his model is simply not lit by the map. E.g. me on the PG side of the bridge, Xaero at the RL.
  • You might like to try swapping the PG with the LG. Xaero goes after the LG a lot.
  • Xaero still prefers the boxes to get one level up to the PG, than the JP nearby. This may have to do with the fact that bots prefer the "quieter" path?
  • The TP is not used by Xaero on hardcore... strange... maybe your trigger brush should touch the ground, and/or extrude more from the TP brushwork?
  • Xaero also never uses the angled JP leading to the upper level (on the new YA side), this could be the motivation to add stairs here instead of the JP, should help the gameflow as well, IMO.
  • Your water is great, it really helps as an audio cue. Trouble is that the bot, and of course also real players will use the trims alongside the water to *not* trigger a water sound. I think those trims will have to go.
  • The TP is great BTW, good gameflow to exit onto bridge to get a 25H and then a RL.
  • You may also want to remove the brush, blocking the side of the stairs leading up to the YA (the RG one). When trying to get up those stairs to the GL/YA you can get stuck there.
  • Your gameflow in some areas really works well, e.g. Xaero running the parallel path LG to the RL JP, you running the path on the upper level (PG area), cutting off the bots path, letting the player predict movement.

The map is still quite "angly" (right angles). You should be able to find the areas where some "rounding off" or 45° cuts in the columns/corners may help. I don't recall the locations presently, I only noted that I kept running into a "corner".




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surfaceparm nomarks
surfaceparm nomarks

Joined: 10 Aug 2009
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PostPosted: 10-23-2009 06:58 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


**UPDATE - beta3**

Link: http://cityy.explicits.de/uploads/maps/q3ct3_beta3.zip

An experimental beta - enjoy :)

Thanks for your great feedback AEon. Tho I didn't have the time to think about all your points yet.



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PostPosted: 10-23-2009 08:21 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


You prove again why I should never edit someone else's map, since you came up with some really good thoughts and changes yourself.

  • Cutting off the old RG room was a very good move, and moving the RG pit more towards the center of the map as well. The dead-end passage also helps make picking up the RG dangerous.
  • You'll be adding some detail and a less bright light in the RG corridor right? You might make the area were you paced the RG about 25% wider than the corridor, and add flat water, as a sound cue, i.e. create a small RG chamber. This way picking up the RG will trigger a splash. As an alternative / addition place some 5H in the corridor to make is clear that someone has just picked up the RG and is "coming out". Again to make the map less flat on the lower level, you could drop the new "RG chamber" a bit, 64u maybe, to have two sets of stairs in the perpendicular narrow corridor lead out to the normal lower floor level.
  • The smaller SG/YA area feels a lot nicer and less "stretched"... i.e. cutting the whole JP jump in the hole thing was a good move. The SG here feels a bit crammed into the corner, maybe you could carve a bit into the wall around the SG
  • I think the new placement of RA, LG, and PG, and the 2nd YA all help the game.
  • I *really* like the new platform you added for the GL. Though I am wondering if switching the LG with the new GL location might not work even better.
  • One thing that is becoming very clear is that pathing on the upper level of your map is not optional but actually an integral part of making the map play much more interestingly, IMO.
  • Concerning that layout "theme": I *really* think the dead-end YA (the one not above the RG), needs to be integrated into the upper level pathing. I would suggest you continue the path through the wall near the LG and also continue the path, maybe around a corner cutting through your walls at the GL, to connect with the YA area, by adding stairs leading up from the left and right of the YA additionally. This way you could navigate most of the upper areas in one loop. This also fixes the gameflow stopper at the LG, where you presently *have* to jump down onto the boxes. I never really liked having to do that.
  • From the water taking the stairs up to the RA room. Those two sets of 90° stairs presently still feel a bit weird, because the last few steps are perpendicular. This could be fixed by grouping the stairs into *3* groups, with small flat areas in between. You'd need to create some space to do that. Presently they feel too stashed together. IMO, losing the JP here was a good move.
  • As deco and to make your floors less flat on the lower level, I'd suggest you add maybe a huge octagon-like "pit" into the floor around the MH, e.g. two steps leading down to the MH. The shape of the "pit" should probably follow the layout of the walls here somewhat.
  • Note: The present water "barrier" can still be skipped by bunny-hopping. Funny that I was actually able to pull that off. IMO, this is a good thing, for it allows "skilled" players to avoid this water audio cue.
  • Did you start hinting the map? When standing at the far end YA (near the LG) I get r_speeds of 11K, not really high, but I can see a lot of geometry from here that should actually be vis-blocked by columns etc... if you need help, I'd be willing to look into hinting.

Map is getting better and better... and the layout is starting to be really interesting and fun to play.

Update:
  • Started play the map with more bots: Xaero, Klesk and Hunter. That was a lot of FFA fun :toothy:.
  • Bots still never seem to use the TP.
  • You might like to playerclip off some of the corners, e.g. in the RA room the ones left and right of the doorways, and going up the stairs to the bridge on one side of the doorway.
  • The TP area, IMO, is a relic from your first versions and is too large. You could make that area smaller by about 30%, leaving enough space for the SG and the TP.
  • The crates next to the YA SG are neat, you can reach the SG with one jump when you do not take the stairs. There is a small box to the right that can get you stuck here. Either move it closer to the others or clip it please.
  • The large crates below the LG are *really* popular as "stairs" for the bots. For a player they are very hard to climb though. The angle off edges help, but after jumping on the 2nd box I usually have too much momentum that I fall off it. A dumbed down placement of boxes might be helpful.




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Warrior
Warrior

Joined: 07 Aug 2009
Posts: 76
PostPosted: 10-23-2009 01:58 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I still don't know squat about the rules of creating maps that play well, so I'll just chip in with a few notes on how it looks.

  • Trims like this one right here would look better if you make the 45-degrees slanted part wider, like so:
    just drag some edges around. Just mentioning it since its the kind of thing that should become an automatism. :]
  • Overall the level looks a little bit too dull, mostly muted gray. The blue and orange seem a little too strongly saturated, but at the same time don't affect the surrounding geometry much. Maybe just my preference, but I'd go for more subtly coloured lights, and let them do more of the work compared to the rather strong sunlight. I'd also make the sunlight just slightly more dirty/yellowish.
  • Part of the dullness seems to be due to the gray textures. I assume a lot of them are still just temporary for the gameplay test? If not, I'd consider giving some areas a more recognisably different look in terms of use of trims and wall textures.
  • I think the light is rendered without the -patchshadows modifier, as judging by the light on the floor @ the curved stairs. Seems odd to me that the sunlight should come in there. I think it should be possible to reduce some polies by taking a more careful approach to setting up the sky/ceilings. Right now very big parts of the sky are drawn from areas that could do without. Looks like the map is covered by one big skybox. I may be wrong, but it looks like a wasteful approach.

That's all I can think of right now. It looks like it should be fun and solid to play, but like I said -- not the best judge of that.



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