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Rage
https://www.quake3world.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=41173		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  obsidian [ 08-07-2009 10:36 AM ]
Post subject:  Rage
Here are some new screenshots and a PDF of a Siggraph presentation by Jean-Paul van Waveren.

Seriously blow-your-socks-off screenshots! :eek:

Image
Author:  Hipshot [ 08-07-2009 12:02 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Rage
Yeah I saw those. Looks very good. To be honest, it looks as good as everything else, when I see it in motion, then I can see if it looks better than other things.

I'm all up though, iD's still the best. I wonder how the MP will be in this. I wonder if it will be possible to play a death match similar to "Quake". And also, I really hope that they still are in for modding and level editing as they usually are...
Author:  Kaz [ 08-07-2009 01:10 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Rage
At the very least I'm just happy it's not super dark
Author:  phantazm11 [ 08-07-2009 02:18 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Rage
Kaz wrote:
At the very least I'm just happy it's not super dark



...and there's water!
Author:  fKd [ 08-07-2009 09:35 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Rage
wonder what it is gonna be like to edit.. seen some videos and it looks quite easy. hahaha. but we all know that is never the case.
Author:  jal_ [ 08-08-2009 12:36 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Rage
Scary level of detail.
Author:  phantazm11 [ 08-08-2009 09:37 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Rage
fKd wrote:
wonder what it is gonna be like to edit.. seen some videos and it looks quite easy. hahaha. but we all know that is never the case.


Unfortunately, I'm not sure Rage is going to be that mod friendly after all...Carmack interview on youtube. Check it out from 1:26 to 2:30. Not exactly sure how old this video is though.
Author:  A13C [ 08-08-2009 03:49 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Rage
Yeah.
He's telling that R.A.G.E. will require modders to design whole things, that is, from the choice of real materials such as steal and wood to the consideration of their real physics.

So if a modder tries to design a steal object by using chain saw in a devlopment kit, he fails.
Even if he could manage to create a visually impressive car, it might not run at all due to the lack of consideration of real physics.

about ss:
The sky is telling as if something is about to happen.
Author:  obsidian [ 08-08-2009 05:00 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Rage
That's not what Carmack said at all, he didn't even talk about physics. And as a rhetorical question, aren't you banned?
Author:  fKd [ 08-08-2009 05:36 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Rage
i watched those dev videos over at gametrailers.com showing the tools in action and it looked quite easy. but yeah.. time will tell
Author:  mrd [ 08-08-2009 05:39 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Rage
Looks pretty sweet. I remember hearing a while ago that you could modify the game whilst people are in it, running around and playing, and that the players could see the editors' changes in real-time as they play. I wonder if this is still the case? Sounds pretty neat either way.
Author:  obsidian [ 08-08-2009 05:45 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Rage
I don't think that's possible, there is still some compiling that needs to be done before it is fully playable. What was hinted at was that the creation tools were networked, so you could have multiple people working on the same level and changes would be updated in the editor for all designers.
Author:  mrd [ 08-08-2009 06:12 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Rage
Ahhh okay, that's still pretty cool though :)
Author:  fKd [ 08-08-2009 07:47 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Rage
no dynamic time of day seems like a bit of a bummer
Author:  Hipshot [ 08-09-2009 03:19 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Rage
When I was younger I though that a dynamic day cycle was the shit, these days and in a game that seems to be like rage, it doesn't really matter I think. Maybe it's a game thing too, not the engine, I'm sure iD can do it if they want it, maybe it just is too expensive to have as a major feature in the game.


I can see a dialogue with my younger self:

Playing Half-Life, walking on the cliffs watching the far landscape
(Younger me) -Wouldn't it be great if I could just see the sun set here and the shadows becomes long and some birds fly of into the sun set.
(Today me) -Yea, you wanna keep standing on this cliff side for what - 6 more hours? - that's nice. I'm just gonna go finish the game.
Author:  g0th- [ 08-09-2009 06:02 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Rage
I'm excited about Rage those screens looks awesome. I can't even Imagen how nice it must be to work without the need to tile and reuse textures. especially for terrain where you could sculpt a whole mountain and just bake it down and make all the normal map vectors fits the low poly perfectly.

and yeah, agreed that day/night cycle is not that important but it's probably possible to do it by hacks with dynamic lights just like it was done in doom3.
Author:  phantazm11 [ 08-09-2009 07:42 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Rage
Actually JC mentions the day/night cycle in one of the videos that I linked to. Bsically they didn't want to do it because of all of the static lights and baked-in shadows. That, and the fact that one scene might look great during the day, but when it was dark, it might not look all that spectacular, and things (visual clues, important gameplay-related details, etc) might get lost in the gloom. Just the gist of it of course.
Author:  obsidian [ 08-09-2009 05:37 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Rage
Ermmm... when Carmack talks about day/night cycles, he was talking about Enemy Territory Quake Wars, which was initially tested with that feature. But Splash Damage found that it was hindering their gameplay since certain objective elements wouldn't be as visible in certain times of the day. The artists also hated it since there would always be some time of day when the lighting would look like ass.

I don't see any mention of dynamic day/night cycles for Rage.
Author:  fKd [ 08-09-2009 07:25 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Rage
you need to watch it again, he used that example to backup why they were not going with a dynamic day/night light cycle.
Author:  phantazm11 [ 08-10-2009 04:50 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Rage
Could you imagine something like Oblivion on this Tech?
Author:  o'dium [ 08-11-2009 06:41 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Rage
What, you mean with more than 4 faces/voices in the entire game...?

As amazing as the game was it always puzzled me how a game with a face generator only ever had a few faces...
Author:  fKd [ 08-11-2009 08:08 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Rage
long time no see o'dium, any new screens of ya work around?
Author:  Castle [ 08-12-2009 10:15 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Rage
phantazm11 wrote:
Could you imagine something like Oblivion on this Tech?


honestly
if you were somehow able to combine Ids fluid movement and navigation into oblivion or fallout 3 it would be spectacular.

With that said
I would actually be really impressed to see many of the features of the constructionset/Geck in a id based engine though. Their dialog and quest scripting systems are extremely powerful and intuitive allowing for some very interesting possibilities.
Author:  AEon [ 08-12-2009 10:54 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Rage
I have the feeling - from looking at the massive amounts of detail in the screenshots - that id tech 5 is definitely going pro-artists, contra-armature "hacks". I.e. only vaguely "artistic" folks, like myself, might be able to make maps look quite "interesting" by clever abstractions in design, creating a convincing, though far from realistic worlds. With Rage it seems you can no longer cover up a lack in artistic skills, because it seems to be based on reality too much.

Is the architecture based on brushes any longer? Or are those all more or less models, with clever (real-time (in the editor)) texture layering?

Alas id still does not seem to go for foliage, the shots show a bit of grass and that is pretty much it :(...

Update: Just watched what Carmack had to say... he pretty much said it, for the "non-professional" folks Rage will be tough, when you want to create something that does not totally look like cr*p. And the good old "simple" brush modeling seems to be gone as well. So if you don't know how to use a professional modeling editor, you'll probably end up moving around existing content. That makes me wonder: Is the terrain editable? Or is it also a "model" that cannot be changed directly in the "game editor"?
Author:  Castle [ 08-12-2009 12:46 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Rage
AEon wrote:
I have the feeling - from looking at the massive amounts of detail in the screenshots - that id tech 5 is definitely going pro-artists, contra-armature "hacks". I.e. only vaguely "artistic" folks, like myself, might be able to make maps look quite "interesting" by clever abstractions in design, creating a convincing, though far from realistic worlds. With Rage it seems you can no longer cover up a lack in artistic skills, because it seems to be based on reality too much.

Is the architecture based on brushes any longer? Or are those all more or less models, with clever (real-time (in the editor)) texture layering?

Alas id still does not seem to go for foliage, the shots show a bit of grass and that is pretty much it :(...

Update: Just watched what Carmack had to say... he pretty much said it, for the "non-professional" folks Rage will be tough, when you want to create something that does not totally look like cr*p. And the good old "simple" brush modeling seems to be gone as well. So if you don't know how to use a professional modeling editor, you'll probably end up moving around existing content. That makes me wonder: Is the terrain editable? Or is it also a "model" that cannot be changed directly in the "game editor"?



Its hard to say really.
If you take an engine like UT3 or even the construction set/Geck I can definitely see what you are saying. using models in creative ways and being able to build interesting geometry with creative use of existing assets is very powerful.

Going off of what I know about previous tech like ETQW and the concept of mega textures being applied to a wider variety of assets I cant help but agree with your concerns. In ETQW I do believe that the terrain was made up of large non-modular pieces. I guess time will tell *shrugs*

edit: I have no advanced knowledge of the new tech when I said the above.
Author:  Mr dk [ 08-12-2009 12:58 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Rage
I seem to recall one of the first RAGE videos suggested some editing of the mesh would be possible in the editor. Perhaps this just refered to texturing though, similar to QW maybe?
Author:  obsidian [ 08-12-2009 01:33 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Rage
I too seem to recall the ability to lift or lower the mesh of the terrain. Though a lot of rock formations shown in the screenshots are definitely models.
Author:  AEon [ 08-12-2009 01:45 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Rage
Hmm... that reminds me of Far Cry editing, only without "proper" vegetation. Change of terrain + models, lets you create interesting maps, but without quick and easy changes in geometry that got old quick for Far Cry... well... we'll see how things work out.
Author:  scythe [ 08-12-2009 05:33 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Rage
From everything I've read, it looks like idtech5 will make game development easier for pros, but it's not going to be at all friendly for the lone amateur mapper. A shame, but it looks like modding is going to become more and more of an exclusive club.
Author:  AEon [ 08-14-2009 10:45 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Rage
The biggest problem I had with modeling tools was the pains you had to go through for the most trivial geometry changes, i.e. things I could build in GTKradiant in less than a minute would almost take an hour. Sure, geometry manipulation tools, like stencil (I think it was called that way) are really nifty to spiff up otherwise boring e.g. boxes, and it really would be a pain trying to do that in GTKradiant, but... hmmm.

[grumble]From what I remember from gmax, things were terrible... it's like all the intuitive, good, and simplified editing was removed from that tool to make *everything* a "major operation". Do modelers really tick that differently? Or do they have some built-in high tolerance for pain, i.e. non-didactic interfaces are just tolerated? As a programmer I really was thinking, almost all the basics need to be rewritten in gmax.[/grumble]

Maybe I'm just getting too old for that kind of thing :smirk:

Quote:
From everything I've read, it looks like idtech5 will make game development easier for pros, but it's not going to be at all friendly for the lone amateur mapper.

Understandable... they want to sell the engine to "pros". Folks that know their modeling tools, who can probably add new models as quickly as "we" could build them in GTKradiant (the more trivial models that is). But then comes skinning, etc...
Author:  obsidian [ 08-14-2009 11:16 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Rage
To each it's own strengths. A level editor with brushes is still the fastest ways to prototype a map out and come up with the core layout and playability. This is what id Studio looks like for Rage, I think it is still a basic brush-based editor with some extra tools loaded on for texturing, road placement, terrain deformations, etc. But I'm sure you could still build a room in the editor out of brushes as you always have. Models are great for other things, where you don't have to stay on the grid and you have complex angles and shapes that you can't do in an editor.

It sounds like skinning and texturing in id Studio will be less finicky so skinning doesn't have to be perfect. Currently, if I wanted to make one of those rock pillars from the screenshots, I would have to have the model perfectly UVW mapped and skinned, trying to hide all the texture seams. Then I would have to figure out some way of doing all the right texture blends to bury it into the sand. With the megatexture stamping tools, it sounds like I can just apply a really basic texture and do a quick box or cylindrical texture projection onto the model, then stamp over all the seams and blend the textures into the ground.
Author:  Castle [ 08-14-2009 12:09 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: Rage
The idea that block meshing is faster in radiant vs max is a myth perpetuated by how easy it is to accidentally abuse the extra power you gain from superior precision. In reality, your proficiency is really the main factor and both options are equally optimal in trained hands.

With that said I still to this day prefer UBER/COD radiant 3d camera movement with UEDs closely behind over the camera in max for level design... :shrug:
Author:  phantazm11 [ 08-15-2009 10:26 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Rage
Post moved to this thread
Author:  AEon [ 08-15-2009 10:38 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Rage
Everyone please use the new thread on the OT topic:


Could you please copy your post into the new thread phantazm11, thanks.

(I'll delete all the posts OT posts later, or delete your own posts if you will.)
Author:  phantasmagoria [ 08-17-2009 05:54 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: Rage
New stuff:

Trailer: http://www.gametrailers.com/video/quake ... rage/54146

Tom Willits: http://www.gametrailers.com/video/creat ... rage/54283
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