AEblocks - Modular Mapping

Discussion for Level editing, modeling, programming, or any of the other technical aspects of Quake
AEon
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AEblocks - Modular Mapping

Post by AEon »

Strange how things work out and how timing in life seems to be crucial at times. A few days ago I converted my map AEtime to Reflex. I wanted to see how good a brush-based approximation for patches works, when done manually.
  • radiant164 2014-12-26 11-27-45-39.jpg
These were the patches I had to approximate. Thanks to the in-GTKradiant 2D view approximation, using a 1u grid it was possible to quickly get relatively good "fake patches" done in brushes. And that made me think how to efficiently work with so many "tiny" brushes... well the obvious path was to put each "block" into a func_group. This will be obvious to most folks here, and it is... to me slightly less so, since I only remembered ever using func_group to avoid "level of detail" popping on a set of patches. But it works wonderfully for such "building blocks" as well. Not quite sure what q3map2 will say to it, but IIRC ungrouping those brush collections would be best, to avoid strange lighting artefacts.
  • radiant164 2014-12-26 15-36-26-90.jpg
Anyway I ended up with these "modules" for AEtime... interestingly, quite a few less that I thought the map was actually made up of. I loved placing the brush modules where the patches used to be, and even kept the t-junction cut up brushwork with caulk that was initially created to avoid sparklies. BTW, this also avoids brush-brush-related sparklies in Reflex, presently. Well it was fun, and I really wanted to expand on the modular design, alas could think of nothing.

Then Castle posted his Engine Wars Video on YT last night (be sure to check it out). And there he already did what I would love to do for Q3A. He created a set of blocks, pretty much like in Minecraft, as he mentions, but for UT4. I love the "simple" design, that lets you relatively easily create Lego-like building blocks at any level of detail you want to then build a "blocky map".
  • radiant164 2014-12-31 16-49-49-98.jpg
Looking at Sock's Industrial texture set (here my recoloured base textures) I started to experiment with creating the basic block, size of that module is 64³u³. And a perfect cube would be very boring, so I experimented with a 4u grid diagonal edge cut-off (front blocks), but that to me is too course. So I presently prefer to use a 2u grid diagonal cut-off (3x3 blocks in background). The clever idea Castle introduced is to put patches (rounded surfaces) into the block modules, to create all sorts of standardized geometry on a "64u grid".

Well, anyway, this is exactly my kind of thing. Suitably abstract geometry that lets me create new modules quickly, to then be able to use them all over the place. And more importantly, these modules would for the most part look "good" (hopefully).

Obviously, this would be an awesome test case for instancing. I.e. I start off with some blocks that look OK, then update their design, but only need to change the one central instance, to have the map updated. Alas Q3A does not support that. The closest thing to instancing is, to create the blocks in separate map files, compile them into ASE files, and then import the models into the map. That would be relatively nice, but would limit texturing massively. E.g. I would not use blocks covered with textures on all sides, but would obviously "tactically" caulk to keep overdraw and polygon counts down. Something Castle apparently has problems with under UT4. So my blocks will be in func_groups, letting you texture them as you like on the fly.

Interestingly... since the 64u grid is actually a base path width, 2x normal path, 3x generous path, 3x heigh walls for generously heigh ceilings, and ramps/stairs that tend to be multiples of 64u high in total... a lot could be done. E.g. create a stair module for a previous ramp module.

Initially I was thinking of creating one map out of all this, but it could actually be used by anyone who wants to quickly block out a map to try it out for gameplay, to then replace the blocks with their own detailed designs, but having large-scale layout grid-compliance already in place. Pretty much like the idea of my orange template texture set... only in 3D.

I hope Castle can forgive my application off his idea... though after some more thought, it reminds me that the Portal 2 level editor pretty much did this way back.

Presently imaging Sock's Industrial map in a Lego-like look...

Anyway... this might be a fun thing to try... we'll see how it goes.
AEon
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Re: AEblocks - Modular Mapping

Post by AEon »

It seems I need to learn 3D clipping to create the modules... presently did it the hard 2D way plus vertex editing... and its more difficult than I thought to get those 45° edge cuts into place. Easy on anything co-planar. A 45° rotatable grid might be nice to have just about now. Though I think staying on grid is the biggest issue, already down to 1u grid, in a few cases.

The one curved patch was actually a lot easier than I thought on the other hand. Especially the 45° angled edge that also follows the curve. Pretty nifty what you can do with the patches.
  • radiant164 2014-12-31 23-41-41-28.jpg
But I love building the blocks... will be adding a slew of patch-based ones soon, after I have all the "block" sizes done. E.g. columns up to 3x64u heigh, and also tiny16³u³ ones too, for "deco".

Next step will be to look into an existing map, e.g. AEdm7 or AEtime, and check if these blocks are enough to "mostly" block out those maps, or if more modules are needed.
AEon
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Re: AEblocks - Modular Mapping

Post by AEon »

So at the end of day one... a small test to see how the blocks look... in GTKradiant... still need to do a real compile and check if that improves the look:
  • radiant164 2015-01-01 01-27-33-64.jpg
Alas, bit disappointing, hopefully my "module layouting" will improve, to make something more interesting. And the full power of texturing should also help.

The "real" edges on all the blocks at least are a form of "bumpmapping".
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Hipshot
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Re: AEblocks - Modular Mapping

Post by Hipshot »

Building like this can be pretty neat, I worked in several proprietary editors that worked like this, since they used premade models instead of brushes.

However, don't you think there will be tons unnecessary triangles like this? Q3 isn't really made for an excess of triangles =)
Q3Map2 2516 -> http://www.zfight.com/misc/files/q3/q3map_2.5.16_win32_x86.zip
Q3Map2 FS_20g -> http://www.zfight.com/misc/files/q3/q3map2_fs_20g.rar
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AEon
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Re: AEblocks - Modular Mapping

Post by AEon »

The excess of triangles...

Probably... the number of visible triangles in a block in the middle of the wall would be (1+4+4)x2 = 18 triangles, a flat brush face would only be 2. The blocks are all "auto-mittered" where they touch, so that should help slightly, plus most of the faces would be caulked and thus removed from the engine.

So it does waste triangles... then again, the GTKradiant 1.6.4 image shown on launch, shows a map that had 200K tris, IIRC... and it still ran well on my system... soo... don't care about wasting tris. ;)

It's an experiment anyway, to see what can be done. I always wanted to recreate something like Lego in 3D... and this is my chance to try it out finally.
AEon
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Re: AEblocks - Modular Mapping

Post by AEon »

Slowly getting there. Looks like a building site presently. Had to rebuild the ramps, started to add the curved paths/walls.
  • radiant164 2015-01-01 23-07-08-22.jpg
The blocks will all be "detail", and any map created with them will need a manually created caulk hull for vis. And you will want to go in and remove unseen patches, i.e. on some unseen underside. Once you have a layout, you will also need to do a select all and then cover everything in the map with caulk, to then re-texture only the seen faces.

Using rounded corridors might be a fun thing to build with... still thinking of more modules to create. As they are presently, changing the width or height of the modules is fairly easy and quick to do. I would imagine when building you then create more modules as you need them. E.g. some large wall element, avoiding having to use many (64u)³ blocks that needlessly "waste" tris.
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Hipshot
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Re: AEblocks - Modular Mapping

Post by Hipshot »

It's gonna be interesting to see what sorts of level you will get out of this. Even if you have premade blocks, you still need to think out a good design =)
Q3Map2 2516 -> http://www.zfight.com/misc/files/q3/q3map_2.5.16_win32_x86.zip
Q3Map2 FS_20g -> http://www.zfight.com/misc/files/q3/q3map2_fs_20g.rar
GtkRadiant 140 -> http://www.zfight.com/misc/files/q3/GtkRadiantSetup-1.4.0-Q3RTCWET.exe
AEon
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Re: AEblocks - Modular Mapping

Post by AEon »

Yeah... especially those curved corridor or wall blocks... should add an interesting, quickly to implement, playfulness.

I always wondered why I did not use more rounded passages... because as soon as you add some detail they are a pain to add, so if you do not add them right from the start, they don't get added later. Might be just my laziness though. Anyway I am still thinking of creating more non-trivial patch blocks that add a fun element, that would otherwise not be added to a map, for fear of extra work. But once I have the blocks painstakingly created (har)... you just drop and forget :-P
Castle
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Re: AEblocks - Modular Mapping

Post by Castle »

AEon wrote:I hope Castle can forgive my application off his idea... though after some more thought, it reminds me that the Portal 2 level editor pretty much did this way back.
HA! This is awesome! And I too have to say that there really is something neat about this. I like how it changes the design process and I really find it interesting in how it shows that voxels can be seen as unknown cousin of the brush.

I even considered the idea of making some blocks destroyable after taking enough damage XD
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AEon
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Re: AEblocks - Modular Mapping

Post by AEon »

Glad you are not screaming up the walls... ;)

Your map really really helped me visualize that the block mapping can work and can look cool. I would not have been able to imagine it working. Your map is a proof of concept so to speak. I noted many interesting designs in your map as well, e.g. the way you turned around the cube with the angled off side, to then use it as your bridge, and to have flatter blocks as outdents to make the bridge look more interesting. Strangely the design seems familiar, either it is from your 1st UT4 design, or from somewhere else.

I am only beginning to understand that a ramp is not only a ramp, it can be the underside of a ramp to give is a smooth look, or the ramp can be an angled off corner or part of a "rounded off" platform...

I also "dreamed" a few more blocks... like those curved paths to angle up... so the 90° corridors become 90° stair ramps, spanning probably 128u in height... will need some testing, but thanks to the patches this is actually really easy to implement.

Finally need to get a compile sorted out, to see how all this looks under skybox lighting.
AEon
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Re: AEblocks - Modular Mapping

Post by AEon »

So finally sorted out the .pk3 files for AEblocks and AEindus, with all textures and shaders as they are. Did a full light compile (AEdm7 settings, using Hipshot's Miramar skybox). Sun's orientation in sky is still wrong. And it seems to be a bit dark too.
  • quake3 2015-01-02 17-03-33-68.jpg
It really looks so much better with proper lighting... Castle's map still looks better, probably due to his nice cream texture, but the lighting definitely is a step up.
  • quake3 2015-01-02 17-04-20-41.jpg
The test walls and floors look relatively nice now. The skybox light colour is blue'ish, might want to go to yellow'ish instead though. The one block missing in the wall was actually a duplicate brush placement there... seems the compiler then kills such a brush. I seem to recall such issues from way back. Shift+LMB-drag select quickly reveals such duplicity in placed geometry though (old trick).

I am really happy that all the brushwork seems to be "valid".

I am seeing many

Code: Select all

Entity 0, Brush 164: duplicate plane
in the compile, though... hmmm... will need to check what exactly is up with that.

Another few blocks to create, and then I can start to block out a new map...
AEon
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Re: AEblocks - Modular Mapping

Post by AEon »

I did not think I'd actually create something completely new, but using the blocks really helps plan out a layout, using 3x blocks as path widths mostly. And I noted that glass actually is a really neat building block too.
  • quake3 2015-01-02 23-08-12-59.jpg
The map style seems to be a combination of industrial (the crete), neo-gothic and some form of post-modern de-constructivism... started to add the red lines to the edges to highlight features. The JP is still a work in progress... already I have ideas for new blocks, that I "need" in some places.
  • quake3 2015-01-02 23-18-30-90.jpg
Even from the outside it looks interesting, IMO. Because normally all the outside would be caulked.

Well, with zero optimization, no caulked faces, the whole scene comes in at 21K tris... which is pretty hefty... I created larger blocks to "cover" more area with less brushes, these would at some point be used. Block mitering ;). And the unseen faces can all be caulked. The gaps between the cubes I will plug with a small brush... and with a caulk hull... it should be possible to bring down the tris count to, well hopefully around 5K for this scene... but that is just a guess.

I have no idea if this layout makes much sense, but one thing is for sure, once I know where to go with the paths, tweaking and changing them will not be a huge issue... I love the drag selecting of a wall, delete, and then add a window there. Scale-wise the blocks work really well.

About texturing... hmm... brushwork can be used as decoration, much like in Reflex, because I have all those sub-unit modules, so colouring them would not be much of a issue. I did a bit of the sub-block editing around the central pool. And all the other neat details, like decals, plant models etc. can still be added. Maybe, I could "mono-colour" e.g. the textures for Sock's POM tree, to keep the abstract look.

The layout is about two hours work... so you really do get something done with those blocks.

BTW, recently bought Minimun on Steam... I really love their style... this might be the way this map will go, well in a blocky way.
Castle
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Re: AEblocks - Modular Mapping

Post by Castle »

A lot of my experiences reflect yours so far when it comes to this style of design. The fact that the level is viewable from outside on my UT4 map is amusing to say the least. Though I will say that Unreal 4 has a couple advantages.

For one I have access to triplanar materials which allows me to not have a repeating texture look.

It also allows me to apply vertical material projection so the tops and bottom polygons do not look the same as the sides and I am still free to rotate the blocks however I want.

Unreal 4 is also a bit better at occlusion culling methods when it comes to using lots of smaller objects with small bounding volumes.

I will do a video to talk about some of these things tonight or tomorrow. I will also show off Tesseract which is the latest version of the cube engine.
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AEon
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Re: AEblocks - Modular Mapping

Post by AEon »

Yeah... noted that your modules look more interesting... though I had the feeling those had to do with "indentations" of the surface geometry. I did think about it... but that might up the poly counts even more.

The other really huge plus of UT4 should be that your modules are mesh instances? I.e. you can plaster everything with them and they will not impact performance that much. Plus you can change your master instance, update it, and the map will automatically look the better for it... whereas I would have to manually place them again.

Took a day off... thinking of what to do with the layout.

One thing is for certain with all the caulking, creation of a caulk hull, and also a player clip/bot clip hull, plus manually removing unseen patches... once the basic layout is done the map will require a lot of extra attention to optimize is somewhat.

Hmm... might be good to explain triplanar materials... manual offsets and texturing would allow some diversity in Q3A... i.e. I was already thinking about adding decals all over the place. Will be interesting to see how they look.

vertical material projection... how that works would also be interesting to see in detail as well. I could not figure out how your cubes are not just plane cubes... I interpreted them as 45° cut angled edges, like I built them... but your modules seems to be different. My 45° angles introduce gaps, and all sorts of other strange things... like "black" lighting on the edges... will need to see what that is all about. Reflex had that sort of lighting "bug" on select steps too...

Might be interesting to see if phong shading helps or not.

I am already thinking of decorating the map with more modules, and plants... but for now the layout must be done.
Castle
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Re: AEblocks - Modular Mapping

Post by Castle »

AEon wrote:Yeah... noted that your modules look more interesting... though I had the feeling those had to do with "indentations" of the surface geometry. I did think about it... but that might up the poly counts even more.

The other really huge plus of UT4 should be that your modules are mesh instances? I.e. you can plaster everything with them and they will not impact performance that much. Plus you can change your master instance, update it, and the map will automatically look the better for it... whereas I would have to manually place them again.

Took a day off... thinking of what to do with the layout.

One thing is for certain with all the caulking, creation of a caulk hull, and also a player clip/bot clip hull, plus manually removing unseen patches... once the basic layout is done the map will require a lot of extra attention to optimize is somewhat.

Hmm... might be good to explain triplanar materials... manual offsets and texturing would allow some diversity in Q3A... i.e. I was already thinking about adding decals all over the place. Will be interesting to see how they look.

vertical material projection... how that works would also be interesting to see in detail as well. I could not figure out how your cubes are not just plane cubes... I interpreted them as 45° cut angled edges, like I built them... but your modules seems to be different. My 45° angles introduce gaps, and all sorts of other strange things... like "black" lighting on the edges... will need to see what that is all about. Reflex had that sort of lighting "bug" on select steps too...

Might be interesting to see if phong shading helps or not.

I am already thinking of decorating the map with more modules, and plants... but for now the layout must be done.
Its possible that Quake 3 Shaders can support Triplanar. All Triplanar does is equally project itself based on world space on all axis with a blend depending on the angle of the polys.

I would also say that UE4 has a disadvantage when it comes to using static meshes due to the inability to disable poly faces based on visibility. The BSP compile process is great for sorting things like that out. When I am working in UE4 with this style of design I am constantly reminded that every single block I place is literally adding a preset amount of light map data to the scene.
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obsidian
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Re: AEblocks - Modular Mapping

Post by obsidian »

Castle wrote:All Triplanar does is equally project itself based on world space on all axis with a blend depending on the angle of the polys.
Doesn't alphaMod dotproduct do just that?
  • [lvlshot]http://q3map2.robotrenegade.com/downloads/samples/alphaMod3.jpg[/lvlshot]

You can also use decal entities for texture projection:
  • [lvlshot]http://q3map2.robotrenegade.com/downloads/samples/screenshots/decal_0257.jpg[/lvlshot]
Last edited by AEon on Sun Jan 04, 2015 7:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: lvlshot'ed the images
[size=85][url=http://gtkradiant.com]GtkRadiant[/url] | [url=http://q3map2.robotrenegade.com]Q3Map2[/url] | [url=http://q3map2.robotrenegade.com/docs/shader_manual/]Shader Manual[/url][/size]
Castle
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Re: AEblocks - Modular Mapping

Post by Castle »

That looks pretty damn close even if its not exactly the same. I kind of wish I knew about that sooner.
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AEon
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Re: AEblocks - Modular Mapping

Post by AEon »

Continued to expand the number of modules. Mostly the angled curved ramps that go up by two blocks... not quite sure about those yet... but going up by 1 block is simply not enough of a height gain.
  • quake3 2015-01-05 00-31-59-43.jpg
Also started to add 8u high steps, something Hipshot pointed out, and the angled parts to be able to place such steps into corners and around them:
  • quake3 2015-01-05 00-32-08-33.jpg
Presently using the sub-blocks I already created to make the steps... but this seems a huge waste of brushes. I might use 16u x 8u sub-block steps that "float" instead. And not fill out the space underneath with blocks. Or I might go wild and graft the floating steps into an existing ramp, via clip cut... should bring down the number of polygons.

I noted that due to the angling off of the steps, walking up those is very uneven. So will need to add player clip to them. Question is though should the player clip be a nice simple ramp, or actual steps? Maybe both, steps in player clip and then cover it with a ramp as bot clip.
  • quake3 2015-01-05 00-34-49-68.jpg
Near the bridge, using ramps, steps and the angled rounded ramps... probably again does not make that much sense... a test to see if it works... I'd say its OK, but not great. Though it does look very SF and surreal...
  • quake3 2015-01-05 00-36-24-63.jpg
Created another interesting angled block, the one on the lower two columns, that then extrudes on the med "bridge". Some of these blocks really create neat geometry.
  • quake3 2015-01-05 00-39-49-51.jpg
Another arena shot... I think the map might be made up of three arenas, about this size. Now I only need to find a good way of connecting them. Played around with Sock's Industrial textures a bit... used the reddish texture I created from Sock's crete one on the pool as a test.
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Theftbot
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Re: AEblocks - Modular Mapping

Post by Theftbot »

Try 3 point clipping the corners on them cubes AEon
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Re: AEblocks - Modular Mapping

Post by AEon »

Theftbot wrote:Try 3 point clipping the corners on them cubes AEon
Yeah, did it yesterday after a lot of fiddling, I think I made the cut I meant to :).
Castle
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Re: AEblocks - Modular Mapping

Post by Castle »

As far as player clip. Since Quake 3 doesnt have IK on the feet then the default answer will be always ramp it when you can.
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AEon
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Re: AEblocks - Modular Mapping

Post by AEon »

What would IK be?

Side note: In Reflex you can double-jump on steps but not on "flatter" ramps presently. Though it works on 45° angled brushes mostly.
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Re: AEblocks - Modular Mapping

Post by Hipshot »

I would not playerclip ramp the stairs, that feels bad when you play regular q3. I might however botclip ramp them, doesn't affect the player so.
Q3Map2 2516 -> http://www.zfight.com/misc/files/q3/q3map_2.5.16_win32_x86.zip
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AEon
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Re: AEblocks - Modular Mapping

Post by AEon »

Spent the afternoon yesterday learning MicroBrush 3... after finding a few problems, I seem to have the gift of "rebinding keys" in exactly the way so things stop working quite as intended. But now RMB goes into Camera Mode, Esc deselects all brushes, Shift-LMB-drag selects brushes... so it almost feels like Radiant ;). And I did rotate the grid by 45° to cut "bevel" along an diagonal edge... the result was not quite there though. I barely was able to get the main axis vectors to point in the directions I wanted, they still seem to have needed some form of "normalizing"... did not know how though.

I then created a "45° wedge" and did a CSG Subtract in Radiant... that, IMO actually got the perfect cut done. Will anyone see the difference?... I'd say almost certainly not... but I really wanted to get it done as good as I could, at least once. Even though I did try to calculate the exact bevel, that pretty much fell flat, but with some manual tweaking the bevel on the diagonal did "look like" the bevel on the orthogonal edge, so I did get there in a way.

Shrinker, author of Mircobrush 3 is looking into creating a bevel tool... that could really be neat. Especially because import of a Q3A .map file (i.e. a brush) and the export of them works in MB3. So I'd use MB3 as a external "modelling tool", well a brush manipulator actually, for Radiant.

Castle,
recently looked up gmax on Wikipedia and other 3D modelling tools and it really seems, other than 3ds Max (costly) only Blender (free) is worth learning. It might be cool if you could do a segment on creating a few "simple" meshes, e.g. bevelled brushes that then get exported to Q3A... ideally (not sure this works that way) as .map geometry, not as models. To show us modelling challenged how using a modelling tools might help create things that are not easily creating in Radiant itself. Just a thought, since I saw you "play around" with Blender.

Made me smile to see Episode 125, Unreal Tournament Part 15... just when I thought I had caught up, you hammered out really nicely detailed stairs and all sorts of other interesting modules... trailblazing the path of inspiration :toothy: And I had totally forgotten I wanted to create a few "tube" modules as well... they really look nice where you added them to your walls. BTW, you are adding very flat shiny metal plates on walls and those hexagonal ones on the floors, do these have clipping? If they do you'd tend to get snagged on walls and "bumped up" ever so slightly on the floors. Hmm...
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Re: AEblocks - Modular Mapping

Post by Eraser »

AEon wrote:What would IK be?
Inverse Kinematics
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