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The fuct one!
The fuct one!
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PostPosted: 05-23-2005 09:10 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


LOL! I live minutes from Lake Worth and didn't even hear about this.




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.
.
Joined: 15 Dec 2000
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PostPosted: 05-23-2005 09:11 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


[xeno]Julios wrote:
Perhaps it's because deep down I don't believe in free will.


Ah I see. Still though, pragmatically should we not engender responsibility within individuals so they feel responsible for some of their actions?

I don't want to get into a FW discussion here and now, but I believe given my cursory analysis of this issue, that free will exists just not in an absolute sense. I think free will increases in the direction of greater complexity of life. Where humans would have more free will than apes, and apes more than insects. I don't have a high degree of confidence in this position simply because I have not given the question enough consideration. However, with degrees of free will, there can be degrees of responsibility.

Riddla, I make no apologizies for these people. I would just like to see the best method of reducing crime applied, all things considered.




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Elite
Elite
Joined: 10 Dec 1999
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PostPosted: 05-23-2005 09:44 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


will reply in more depth later - suffice it to say for now that yes I believe in making sane decisions. And i definitely think that society should promote sane decision making.




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Karot!
Karot!
Joined: 31 Jul 2001
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PostPosted: 05-23-2005 09:54 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Nightshade wrote:
I'll never understand people like you. Why on earth does a piece of pigshit that would beat, rape, and bury a child deserve to be rehabilitated?
Two in the chest, one in the head.


I believe life imprisonment is far worse than any violent death.




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Insane Quaker
Insane Quaker
Joined: 21 May 2005
Posts: 396
PostPosted: 05-23-2005 10:37 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Ryoki wrote:
Nightshade wrote:
I'll never understand people like you. Why on earth does a piece of pigshit that would beat, rape, and bury a child deserve to be rehabilitated?
Two in the chest, one in the head.


I believe life imprisonment is far worse than any violent death.


I guess it depends who you are.

I heard life imprisonment is actually cheaper though, compared with current methods of execution.




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straight at you
straight at you
Joined: 18 Dec 2000
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PostPosted: 05-23-2005 11:00 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


If I did something like that, I would rather be killed than jailed for the rest of my long life.




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Insane Quaker
Insane Quaker
Joined: 21 May 2005
Posts: 396
PostPosted: 05-23-2005 11:06 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


[xeno]Julios wrote:
Nightshade wrote:

I'll never understand people like you. Why on earth does a piece of pigshit that would beat, rape, and bury a child deserve to be rehabilitated?
Two in the chest, one in the head.


Perhaps it's because deep down I don't believe in free will.

Hence, the very concept of "deserve" doesn't mean anything fundamentally.


Yeah, I agree about deserving, though I don't think I'd make reference to free will or lack of.

The woodchipper people are mistaken if they think death is gonna deter someoene who's fucked up in the head from doing something that's already heavily punished, not to mention percieved as the worst crime someone can commit.

I hardly think a person on the brink of committing such a crime weighs things up and say "Hmm, if it was just life imprisonment and being regarded as the scum of the earth I'd say totally worth it, but if the punishment's death I'll just have to be good."

People always talk about feelings, like, "If they did this to someone close to YOU, YOU'd feel like killing them!"

But so what, I might feel like doing a lot of stupid things at times (actually I don't, I don't really get emotional), but it doesn't make them good ideas for laws.




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Arrr?
Arrr?
Joined: 09 Feb 2001
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PostPosted: 05-23-2005 11:09 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


raw wrote:
LOL! I live minutes from Lake Worth and didn't even hear about this.


Well the story broke on CNN's site 30 minutes before I made the thread, so it'll probably be on the evening news.

dmmh wrote:
old


See my above post. :dork:




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Arrr?
Arrr?
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PostPosted: 05-23-2005 11:12 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Rehabilitation is bullshit. The percentage of inmates who get rehabilitated and proceed to stay out of trouble is so small it's laughable. Most end up committing the same crime again, if not a worse crime.

Live in prison is bullshit, too. It costs $60,000 to imprison a man per year. The death penalty is just a quick spike in the electrical bill.



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social engineer
social engineer
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PostPosted: 05-23-2005 11:13 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


riddla wrote:
They could dangle him and then pull the guy out for a 3 hr break once his legs are gone ;)


dangle him, upside down, then cut small slits in his skin at the ankles, grab pliers, and start pulling his skin downward until all is removed. at this point, you blind fold one kid at a time and say to pin the tail on the donkey. they have no idea it's a skinned and live human and it makes for great fun. of course he's got toothpicks in his eyelids and a small lcd monitor in front of his face with live video so he can witness the entire event.




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Tap, Nap, or Snap
Tap, Nap, or Snap
Joined: 01 Dec 2000
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PostPosted: 05-23-2005 11:13 AM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I've said this before, but I think that the death penalty in it's current implementation is not an effective deterrent. If more people were put up against a wall and shot, I feel that it would keep SOME people from committing cold-blooded murder.
But, that opens up a whole can of worms regarding the inherent flaws in the US criminal justice system.

Ryoki, in all honesty I think that the punishment for a convicted offender should be left up to the family members. I don't think that someone that commits a heinous, violent, evil act should be afforded better housing, education, and health care than many poor people can get. I'm sure prison really sucks, which is why we have such high rescidivism rates, but I can't ever see myself thinking that someone that perpetrates something so awful should be allowed to live.




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Arrr?
Arrr?
Joined: 09 Feb 2001
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PostPosted: 05-23-2005 11:20 AM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


We should move everyone in Nevada to surrounding states (except for Las Vegas) and turn the state into a giant prison. Put a wall around the whole thing and just airlift inmates in there. They get to fend for themselves for the duration of their stay. Vegas can be made into a tourist destination to watch the inmates fight with each other. Or something like that. Was going to really elaborate, but I can't be arsed, heh.



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YourGrandpa wrote:
I'm satisfied with voicing my opinion and moving on.


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Insane Quaker
Insane Quaker
Joined: 10 May 2005
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PostPosted: 05-23-2005 01:10 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I agree with Ryoki on this one.




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Timed Out
Timed Out
Joined: 02 Aug 2000
Posts: 38064
PostPosted: 05-23-2005 01:17 PM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Nightshade wrote:
I hope to god you never have to ask yourself if you still believe this statement while standing over your child's hospital bed.
If that happened to my daughter, I would do everything I possibly could to make sure that whoever did it met a BAD end.


..and as soon as you've done that, your society will put you to the chair. Or whatever.

Point being, it's just cyclical. If you're not enough of a person to let the buck stop at your door.. well, fuck ya.



_________________
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Soccer Practice!
Soccer Practice!
Joined: 12 Apr 2003
Posts: 15667
PostPosted: 05-23-2005 01:59 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


riddla wrote:
I'm of the belief that child molesters should be put into wood chippers in the middle of town square.


Agreed..



_________________
I once had a glass of milk.

It curdled, and then I couldn't drink it. So I mixed it with some water, and it was alright again.

I am now sick.

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Timed Out
Timed Out
Joined: 02 Aug 2000
Posts: 38064
PostPosted: 05-23-2005 02:06 PM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


lots of morons in here



_________________
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― Terry A. Davis


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Timed Out
Timed Out
Joined: 02 Aug 2000
Posts: 38064
PostPosted: 05-23-2005 02:26 PM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Eh? No. This was the start of another awesome debate.



_________________
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PostPosted: 05-23-2005 02:28 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Foo wrote:
lots of morons in here




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Timed Out
Timed Out
Joined: 02 Aug 2000
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PostPosted: 05-23-2005 02:28 PM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Keep It Real wrote:
Foo wrote:
lots of morons in here


We cool g?



_________________
"Maybe you have some bird ideas. Maybe that’s the best you can do."
― Terry A. Davis


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Elite
Elite
Joined: 10 Dec 1999
Posts: 18099
PostPosted: 05-23-2005 02:42 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Massive Quasars wrote:
[xeno]Julios wrote:
Perhaps it's because deep down I don't believe in free will.




I don't want to get into a FW discussion here and now, but I believe given my cursory analysis of this issue, that free will exists just not in an absolute sense. I think free will increases in the direction of greater complexity of life. Where humans would have more free will than apes, and apes more than insects. I don't have a high degree of confidence in this position simply because I have not given the question enough consideration. However, with degrees of free will, there can be degrees of responsibility.


The problem is, it's very hard to define responsibility.

Consider a computer that is programmed to make decisions that require a lot of deep analysis. It does so using complex algorithms, or sophisticated connectionist processing.

Furthermore, let's say that as a result of one of the computer's decisions, a million people get blown up.

We could hold the computer responsible, and shut it down, but would it make sense to be angry at it?




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Canadian Shaft
Canadian Shaft
Joined: 01 Mar 2001
Posts: 19998
PostPosted: 05-23-2005 02:43 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote





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Tap, Nap, or Snap
Tap, Nap, or Snap
Joined: 01 Dec 2000
Posts: 27667
PostPosted: 05-23-2005 05:42 PM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Foo wrote:
Nightshade wrote:
I hope to god you never have to ask yourself if you still believe this statement while standing over your child's hospital bed.
If that happened to my daughter, I would do everything I possibly could to make sure that whoever did it met a BAD end.


..and as soon as you've done that, your society will put you to the chair. Or whatever.

Point being, it's just cyclical. If you're not enough of a person to let the buck stop at your door.. well, fuck ya.


It would depend on how I did it, but yes, there is that possibility. Which is another flaw in our justice system.




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I nose it!
I nose it!
Joined: 28 Oct 2002
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PostPosted: 05-23-2005 05:58 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Nightshade wrote:

Why on earth does a piece of pigshit that would beat, rape, and bury a child deserve to be rehabilitated?
Two in the chest, one in the head.


:lol: Couldn't agree more. I'm of the exact same opinion.

I've had chats about this with friends as well, and some of them also think like ryoki and a few others in this thread. It's fucking bullshit that anyone thinks an eye for an eye is wrong. If someone raped, physically hurt or killed someone close to me, then they deserve anything that comes their way. If they happen to be raped in prison by some fat slimy, tattooed convicts, GOOD FUCKING JOB!




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Elite
Elite
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PostPosted: 05-23-2005 06:22 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


what if that person had a bad childhood, or was educated in an unhealthy environment, or had an uncontrollable urge?




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Tap, Nap, or Snap
Tap, Nap, or Snap
Joined: 01 Dec 2000
Posts: 27667
PostPosted: 05-23-2005 06:34 PM           Profile   Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


I want to say that if you're crazy and don't know any better, then the world is better off without you, but that's an oversimplification. If you know the difference between right and wrong, and you still commit the act, buh-bye. Say hello to Uncle Dirtnap.
Issues of mental illness are a different story, and a bit more complicated.
What's the solution? Spend a boatload of taxpayer money to treat someone's illness after they rape and murder someone? Why? So we can all feel better about ourselves and allow some freakzoid scumbag to suck on the public tit for the rest of the state-sponsored lives? Fuck that.
I think that there is a LARGE problem regarding diagnosis and treatment of mental illness in this country, and I lay the blame squarely at the feet of insurance companies. There's no profit to be had in preventative treatment, so they wash their hands of it.
I'm pretty cold when it comes to this subject I guess, and I feel that illnesses that can lead to these kinds of acts MUST be treated beforehand. Once you go over the line, I don't care why you did it.
Not the most cohesive argument I've produced, but I'm tired and feeling the Guinness.




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Rationalis
Rationalis
Joined: 26 Nov 2000
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PostPosted: 05-23-2005 06:52 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


[xeno]Julios wrote:

Perhaps it's because deep down I don't believe in free will.


Scooby Doo wrote:

RUH ROW, RAGGY!!



Btw, if the victim was someone close to me, and I got to the perp before the cops, I don't doubt for a moment (based on personal experience) that the only thing on my mind would be serious bodily injury/death. However, this does not mean I wouldn't accept the consequences of this act...there would be no justification for it except for my own personal feelings.




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Internet is serious business
Internet is serious business
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 21476
PostPosted: 05-23-2005 08:01 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Transient wrote:
Rehabilitation is bullshit. The percentage of inmates who get rehabilitated and proceed to stay out of trouble is so small it's laughable. Most end up committing the same crime again, if not a worse crime.

Live in prison is bullshit, too. It costs $60,000 to imprison a man per year. The death penalty is just a quick spike in the electrical bill.


Where do you get this statistic from? Somebody convicted and sentanced for murder, and then released, is no more likely to commit another crime than anybody else.




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Elite
Elite
Joined: 10 Dec 1999
Posts: 18099
PostPosted: 05-23-2005 08:28 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


moreover, how much resources are spent on actual rehabilitation?

By rehab, I do not mean locking someone up like an animal to be ravaged by the dominant layer of the local sexual hierarchy.




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.
.
Joined: 15 Dec 2000
Posts: 10168
PostPosted: 05-23-2005 08:34 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


[xeno]Julios wrote:
The problem is, it's very hard to define responsibility.

Consider a computer that is programmed to make decisions that require a lot of deep analysis. It does so using complex algorithms, or sophisticated connectionist processing.

Furthermore, let's say that as a result of one of the computer's decisions, a million people get blown up.

We could hold the computer responsible, and shut it down, but would it make sense to be angry at it?


This example is unclear. We don't know the circumstance under which it made the decision that resulted in those deaths.

Regardless, if the AI is at fault for those deaths when they were reasonably avoidable, it will face consequences for it's actions. The best course of action would probably be to reprogram it to place greater value on human life or the lives of all sentient conscious beings. Then confine the AI to a simulation where you could test it with a huge number of difficult scenarios, dilemmas, where a decision is required. Should it pass, re-release it and monitor it's actions for some period afterwards.

We don't have that kind of flexibility with the human brain, yet. If we did, some extreme criminal acts may justify compulsory state sanctioned re-engineering of the brain to physically prevent re-offense. Upon release, there may be long term or life term monitoring. If not compulsory, this procedure may be given as one of two options including life without parole or the death penalty.

At the same time, those at high risk to offend may volunteer themselves for such a procedure where they have more say in what is done to them.

Pie in the sky? Maybe.




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Elite
Elite
Joined: 10 Dec 1999
Posts: 18099
PostPosted: 05-23-2005 08:36 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Nightshade wrote:
I want to say that if you're crazy and don't know any better, then the world is better off without you, but that's an oversimplification.


Sure - perhaps capital punishment is necessary. I personally don't think so, but advocating for CP is not inconsistent with what I'm saying.

Nightshade wrote:
If you know the difference between right and wrong, and you still commit the act, buh-bye. Say hello to Uncle Dirtnap.


If someone knows that killing a child is wrong, then why did she commit the crime? Probably because of some desire or urge. Perhaps she wanted to get a mercedes and needed the money, so she killed the kid and sold the organs. That urge or desire was not able to be overcome, because of her character. Is she responsible for the nature of her character? Well the nature of her character is partially a result of experiences and decisions she's made in the past. But those events were a function of her previous character, etc.


Nightshade wrote:
Issues of mental illness are a different story, and a bit more complicated.


Not necessarily. Mental illnesses could be understood as extreme examples of mental functioning that are societally dysfunctional. I would classify the murder of a child to fund a mercedes an example of that.

Nightshade wrote:
What's the solution? Spend a boatload of taxpayer money to treat someone's illness after they rape and murder someone? Why? So we can all feel better about ourselves and allow some freakzoid scumbag to suck on the public tit for the rest of the state-sponsored lives? Fuck that.


If we can't afford it, we can just jail em for life, or kill em. Doesn't mean we have to hold them responsible in the way I'm talking about.




Last edited by [xeno]Julios on 05-23-2005 08:40 PM, edited 1 time in total.

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Elite
Elite
Joined: 10 Dec 1999
Posts: 18099
PostPosted: 05-23-2005 08:38 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Massive Quasars wrote:
This example is unclear. We don't know the circumstance under which it made the decision that resulted in those deaths.

Regardless, if the AI is at fault for those deaths when they were reasonably avoidable, it will face consequences for it's actions. The best course of action would probably be to reprogram it to place greater value on human life or the lives of all sentient conscious beings. Then confine the AI to a simulation where you could test it with a huge number of difficult scenarios, dilemmas, where a decision is required. Should it pass, re-release it and monitor it's actions for some period afterwards.

We don't have that kind of flexibility with the human brain, yet. If we did, some extreme criminal acts may justify compulsory state sanctioned re-engineering of the brain to physically prevent re-offense. Upon release, there may be long term or life term monitoring. If not compulsory, this procedure may be given as one of two options including life without parole or the death penalty.

At the same time, those at high risk to offend may volunteer themselves for such a procedure where they have more say in what is done to them.

Pie in the sky? Maybe.


Regardless of whether we knew the circumstances of the decision, or whether or not we could reprogram it, wouldn't it be a bit absurd to get angry at the machine?

Afterall, it was merely functioning in accordance with the laws of nature. If you were to rewind time back a million times, it would make that same decision over and over again.

If you had a laplacian calculator, or a mathematical archangel, you would (barring quantum indeterminacies), be able to predict in advance the decision that the computer made.

Similarly, we could do the same for a human being from the time she was born.




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guru
guru
Joined: 13 Mar 2001
Posts: 18068
PostPosted: 05-23-2005 08:41 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


feedback wrote:
Transient wrote:
Rehabilitation is bullshit. The percentage of inmates who get rehabilitated and proceed to stay out of trouble is so small it's laughable. Most end up committing the same crime again, if not a worse crime.

Live in prison is bullshit, too. It costs $60,000 to imprison a man per year. The death penalty is just a quick spike in the electrical bill.


Where do you get this statistic from? Somebody convicted and sentanced for murder, and then released, is no more likely to commit another crime than anybody else.


Is that based on cumulative data? I'd tend to disagree if you looked at each convict individually.




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Don't be koi
Don't be koi
Joined: 06 May 2002
Posts: 2693
PostPosted: 05-23-2005 08:53 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


Here are some cliches. See if you can match them to any of the posts in this thread.

Moral High Ground
Holier-than-thou


Good luck! :icon14:

edit: Btw, there are no fair anologies for an 8-year-old girl being raped and buried alive. Please stop trying to make one. :icon26:




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.
.
Joined: 15 Dec 2000
Posts: 10168
PostPosted: 05-23-2005 09:21 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


[xeno]Julios wrote:
Massive Quasars wrote:
This example is unclear. We don't know the circumstance under which it made the decision that resulted in those deaths.

Regardless, if the AI is at fault for those deaths when they were reasonably avoidable, it will face consequences for it's actions. The best course of action would probably be to reprogram it to place greater value on human life or the lives of all sentient conscious beings. Then confine the AI to a simulation where you could test it with a huge number of difficult scenarios, dilemmas, where a decision is required. Should it pass, re-release it and monitor it's actions for some period afterwards.

We don't have that kind of flexibility with the human brain, yet. If we did, some extreme criminal acts may justify compulsory state sanctioned re-engineering of the brain to physically prevent re-offense. Upon release, there may be long term or life term monitoring. If not compulsory, this procedure may be given as one of two options including life without parole or the death penalty.

At the same time, those at high risk to offend may volunteer themselves for such a procedure where they have more say in what is done to them.

Pie in the sky? Maybe.


Regardless of whether we knew the circumstances of the decision, or whether or not we could reprogram it, wouldn't it be a bit absurd to get angry at the machine?

Afterall, it was merely functioning in accordance with the laws of nature. If you were to rewind time back a million times, it would make that same decision over and over again.

If you had a laplacian calculator, or a mathematical archangel, you would (barring quantum indeterminacies), be able to predict in advance the decision that the computer made.

Similarly, we could do the same for a human being from the time she was born.


I never said you should get angry at the machine, it's pointless.

Why bar quantum indeterminancies in your example? Doesn't this reality creep in?

The AI may not be at fault, but we can fault the decision as not being the best one (or a reasonably good one) given the circumstances (information available). Either way, we may decide to reprogram the AI (irrespective of whether or not FW exists).




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The Illuminated
The Illuminated
Joined: 16 May 2001
Posts: 1678
PostPosted: 05-23-2005 09:48 PM           Profile Send private message  E-mail  Edit post Reply with quote


They actually don't come down very hard on sexual abusers here, they do a few years of time, some rehabilitation, and are released back into the general populace where in time they generally attack another child. Some of the worst offenders take drugs to suppress their urges, they call it chemical castration. They actually have a database of who these guys are and where they are living so parents can check and see if there are any sex offenders living in their neighborhoods. I think people talk about the woodchipper because they are frustrated with seeing these guys released and then killing or attacking another child, it's a kind of revolving door thing that people are sick of. So, it's not actually as merciless as non Americans think it is. At times it seems that criminals here have more rights than the victims.




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